Butchering Primers

[thefish]

Looking for a little advice here.

I finally got around to building a reloading bench for my new Lee Kit, and sized and primered 50 .223 brass tonight. Everything seemed to go smooth, except three out of the 50 had destroyed primers. Upon primering, the press didn't feel quite right, it didn't have that kind of "pop". One primer fell right out, the other is stuck in. Next is figuring how to get it out.

I don't know if the primer didn't go in straight or the primer pocket was not quite right, or what. I did notice on a few of the primer installs, there was a little shaved piece of metal that sometimes appeared in the primer holder after the primer had been installed.

I have handloaded probably 300 .223 on my friends press, a Redding. This Lee press is a new adventure for me.

Thoughts?
Thanks in Advance!

 

[MarcoPolo]

I know the case says 223 Rem, but could they have the military primer crimp?

 

[thefish]

That's entirely possible. The other .223 I reloaded I used my buddys pocket cleaner chucked in a drill.

On these cases, the pockets were cleaned out with the LEE hand tool, and I have a feeling I didn't do a very good job. These cases also were no tumbled after deprime.

 

[Rule3]

That's entirely possible. The other .223 I reloaded I used my buddys pocket cleaner chucked in a drill.

On these cases, the pockets were cleaned out with the LEE hand tool, and I have a feeling I didn't do a very good job. These cases also were no tumbled after deprime.

The Lee primer pocket "cleaning" tool will not remove a military crimp they need to be reamed or swagged out.

Can not tell from the pictures but it sure looks or sounds like trying to prime cases that still have the crimp in them.???

 

[conrad427]

What pedigree are the cases? Have they been shot a lot? Same make and such? Range pick ups? Primer crimp?

A primer that falls out may be a sign of too high pressure on the last firing, but looking at the photo again the primer is deformed.

I also looks like one picture was of a primer that was seated up side down or sideways and forced in. I have done this while priming with the press. The case would rattle on the way out of the die if my lube job was not good enough and the primer would turn sideways or upside down in the ram. I use a RCBS partner press. An RCBS hand prime tool has solved all of my primer screw-ups.

I have not seen brass marked with .223 and be crimped, but I have not seen brass with that particular brand marking either. Mine say REM, WIN, or FED. I have to keep it simple!

 

[119er]

Those cases appear to be crimped. Primers should not "pop" in. It should feel smooth and be silent. I get "pops" every now and then coupled with a ratchet-like feel if one didn't get swaged enough. Sometimes they pop real hard and get damaged on the way in. Yours look like an extreme version of my damaged ones that actually seat past a crimp. Either swage or ream them out. I think I used to use a countersink bit before I started swaging.

Good luck!

 

[thefish]

Range pick ups, a variety of headstamps.

I think I need to invest in a primer pocket cutter and do a better job of prepping brass!

I don't think any of the primers went in upside down, I'm using the LEE auto primer tool, and I made sure all primers were flipped properly (in batches of 20), and also watched each one go into the primer cup (not sure if I'm using the correct terminology).

I don't think it fell out because the pocket was loose, I think it feel out because it was deformed.

Some of the cases had a little lip I the primer pocket, but I do not recall seeing any LC headstamps.

So on the next and more important question. On all but these three cases, the primers look good. Even, no dents, etc. But I do recall seeing on a handful a little half circle shave of metal and wondering what it was. Is it safe to load these up?

 

[conrad427]

It sounds like you are doing things right with the hand prime, you just have gorilla hands!
Must be crimped cases. The half-moon sliver could be part of the primer pocket getting sheared off when a primer is seated in a case with a crimp or the crimp not fully removed.
I have never been around crimped cases so I am not sure if the ones with shaved pockets would be safe. Someone on here is bound to know though. Good Luck!

 

[thefish]

It sounds like you are doing things right with the hand prime, you just have gorilla hands!

Sorry, its not the Auto Prime, it's the safety prime. I was mistaken on what they call it.!

It's the one that holds the primers on the press, automatically puts them into the primer holder in the ram.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/548630/

 

[119er]

As long as your primers fully seated and aren't gouged or deformed in the pocket, I would shoot them. If you have any doubts to their ability to stay in place or contain the pressures of combustion, I would deprime the bad ones, remove any crimps and press in new primers. Primers may be a little harder to come by, but they're still cheap. Just mark it as a lesson learned and confer with your friend.

Live primers are safe to deprime as you would a spent one. For safety's sake, wear eye protection and use a gentle steady motion on the press handle to push them out. I have actually tried to make a live, crimped in primer go off while depriming and couldn't do it but that doesn't mean you can't!.A universal depriming die is very handy for these instances. I think Lee's cost me all of $12.

 

[Nickb45]

All of the "FC" stamped .223 brass I have seen has been crimped, along with some PMC and Aquila.

 

[Walkalong]

Definitely crimp primer pockets. You need to learn what they look like and either swage them or ream them to remove the crimp. Primer pocket cleaner will not remove the crimp. Primer pocket uniformers will help, but not really remove it, and will leave a sharp entrance. You need a tool made for removing the crimp. That said, some people use a deburring tool, or even a screwdriver, but the proper tools can be very inexpensive.

Here is a pic from a recent thread that shows the two basic types of PP crimp. Even brass with crimps not fully removed can cause problems seating primers.

 

[mtrmn]

Yes, the 3rd pic the OP provided plainly shows a crimp around that primer pocket.

And all that destruction to the primer and it didn't go off. I've been telling the hand-wringers for years that a primer must be struck hard and fast to detonate. (Or a source of ignition) The slow priming process, even when removing LIVE primers, will not detonate a primer unless some other circumstance rears it's ugly head.

OP, just run your case through the sizing die again to remove the destroyed primer. Then you can take a drill with a #2 Philips bit to ream the crimp from the primer pocket. Do not take out too much material, just barely chamfer the edge of the hole. You can also take a pocket knife and trim the inner edge of the pocket with that. This is if you only have a few to do.
If you need to remove 1000's of crimps you need a primer pocket swager. This is the cheapest, easiest, and fastest one I've found in my 30 yrs of reloading: http://www.ch4d.com/equipment/priming-tools/psk
Proper adjustment is key to using that one.
Or this: http://www.ch4d.com/equipment/priming-tools/461000

Other folks will swear by the Dillon and RCBS swagers, but they are more expensive and slower than the CH4D swaging kit in my experience. They are good products and do an excellent job, but since I tend to swage multiple thousands at a time I prefer the CH4D.

To answer the inevitable question: Reaming removes metal from the case, while swaging simply reforms the metal and pushes it out of the way.

 

[mtrmn]

Range pick ups, a variety of headstamps.

I think I need to invest in a primer pocket cutter and do a better job of prepping brass!

I don't think any of the primers went in upside down, I'm using the LEE auto primer tool, and I made sure all primers were flipped properly (in batches of 20), and also watched each one go into the primer cup (not sure if I'm using the correct terminology).

I don't think it fell out because the pocket was loose, I think it feel out because it was deformed.

Some of the cases had a little lip I the primer pocket, but I do not recall seeing any LC headstamps.

So on the next and more important question. On all but these three cases, the primers look good. Even, no dents, etc. But I do recall seeing on a handful a little half circle shave of metal and wondering what it was. Is it safe to load these up?

YES

 

[Rule3]

Yes, the 3rd pic the OP provided plainly shows a crimp around that primer pocket.

And all that destruction to the primer and it didn't go off. I've been telling the hand-wringers for years that a primer must be struck hard and fast to detonate. (Or a source of ignition) The slow priming process, even when removing LIVE primers, will not detonate a primer unless some other circumstance rears it's ugly head.

OP, just run your case through the sizing die again to remove the destroyed primer. Then you can take a drill with a #2 Philips bit to ream the crimp from the primer pocket. Do not take out too much material, just barely chamfer the edge of the hole. You can also take a pocket knife and trim the inner edge of the pocket with that. This is if you only have a few to do.
If you need to remove 1000's of crimps you need a primer pocket swager. This is the cheapest, easiest, and fastest one I've found in my 30 yrs of reloading: http://www.ch4d.com/equipment/priming-tools/psk
Proper adjustment is key to using that one.
Or this: http://www.ch4d.com/equipment/priming-tools/461000

Other folks will swear by the Dillon and RCBS swagers, but they are more expensive and slower than the CH4D swaging kit in my experience. They are good products and do an excellent job, but since I tend to swage multiple thousands at a time I prefer the CH4D.

To answer the inevitable question: Reaming removes metal from the case, while swaging simply reforms the metal and pushes it out of the way.

Is the Ch4D swagger better or easier than the RCBS die unit.?

I have not been impressed with the RCBS, either I am doing something wrong or the darn thing requires so much force my press can not handle it. I have been reaming them out with a drill and Hornady tool.

 

[TenDriver]

I have smashed a few primers flat from missing crimped cases. They went bang like they were supposed to.

 

[mtrmn]

Is the Ch4D swagger better or easier than the RCBS die unit.?

I have not been impressed with the RCBS, either I am doing something wrong or the darn thing requires so much force my press can not handle it. I have been reaming them out with a drill and Hornady tool.

Yes it is absolutely the fastest swager I've seen/tried. I had the RCBS die unit of which you speak and it is an absolute pain to use. The problem I had was removing the brass from the ram after swaging took too much force. I gave it away recently to someone more needy than myself. RCBS also has one out like the Dillon unit that is much better, but it's also much more expensive.

The only drawback to the CH4D is you need a tight-fitting shell holder and die adjustment is critical to your success. You will most likely damage/rip the rims off a few cases until you get it adjusted properly. And it does not come with clear instructions. If you get the priming/swaging kit, be sure to tell them you want an extra priming ram so you won't have to fiddle with the small parts required to change primer sizes. The priming function works well, but it's really slow.

Ordering from CH4D is rather old-fashioned--have to call or mail in the order. But everyone who answers the phone know their business and you talk to real people-not a machine or somebody in India that can't speak english.

With the CH swager, all the work is done ON TOP of the press where you have plenty of room. It only requires about 1 inch of press handle movement, not full stroke like all the other ones-even the Dillon. This economy of movement and full access on top of the press is what makes it so much faster. And with this drudgery faster is better, especially in high volume. You can swage as fast as you can swap brass out in a shell holder-like a hundred rounds in 15-20 minutes.

ETA: made in USA, built like a tank, cheap, fast. Does it get any better? And no, I'm not on their payroll.

 

[mtrmn]

I have smashed a few primers flat from missing crimped cases. They went bang like they were supposed to.

Hopefully in the firearm? I have loaded many cases in the past with primers deformed pretty badly--every one has worked so far.

 

[splattergun]

Looking for a little advice here.
Upon primering, the press didn't feel quite right, it didn't have that kind of "pop".

That right there is your stopping point. If one doesn't feel right, STOP and take a careful look!

I agree it is possibly primer crimps preventing the primer from going in to the pocket straight (although the 2nd looks like a sideways primer). When de-priming crimped cases, you will also feel something different. Crimped primers are usually a little harder to pop out. Set those cases aside and remove the crimp (even if the crimp is not obvious to the naked eye). A Philips screwdriver does the trick, or even the conical end of my Lee case chamfering tool works on my 30-06 brass. a couple twists with a low-tech, low-cost tool is all you need to rid your brass of those pesky crimps.

 

[thefish]

Wow, Thanks guys, all of you for the in depth responses. The breadth of knowledge here is awesome.

I believe that some of these cases were crimped, and I really need to do a better job of processing my brass. Still working on my system.

I'm going to look into some of the tools you guys mentioned.

@Walkalong, thanks for that link to the other thread, that helped a lot.

Thanks again guys!

 

[Rule3]

Yes it is absolutely the fastest swager I've seen/tried. I had the RCBS die unit of which you speak and it is an absolute pain to use. The problem I had was removing the brass from the ram after swaging took too much force. I gave it away recently to someone more needy than myself. RCBS also has one out like the Dillon unit that is much better, but it's also much more expensive.

The only drawback to the CH4D is you need a tight-fitting shell holder and die adjustment is critical to your success. You will most likely damage/rip the rims off a few cases until you get it adjusted properly. And it does not come with clear instructions. If you get the priming/swaging kit, be sure to tell them you want an extra priming ram so you won't have to fiddle with the small parts required to change primer sizes. The priming function works well, but it's really slow.

Ordering from CH4D is rather old-fashioned--have to call or mail in the order. But everyone who answers the phone know their business and you talk to real people-not a machine or somebody in India that can't speak english.

With the CH swager, all the work is done ON TOP of the press where you have plenty of room. It only requires about 1 inch of press handle movement, not full stroke like all the other ones-even the Dillon. This economy of movement and full access on top of the press is what makes it so much faster. And with this drudgery faster is better, especially in high volume. You can swage as fast as you can swap brass out in a shell holder-like a hundred rounds in 15-20 minutes.

ETA: made in USA, built like a tank, cheap, fast. Does it get any better? And no, I'm not on their payroll.

Thanks, I will order one. The RCBS is the only product of theirs that I have not been happy with. Just too much effort to get it to work.

 

[chiltech500]

I've gotten a few primers sideways and quite mangled that did not go off - the problem was a crimped primer pocket and I didn't know it (Winchester NT in 45 ACP) until someone mentioned the crimp in the Win NT cases.

I have a Dillon reaming/swaging device in shipment that was recommended by several folks on a 1911 website.

 

[witchhunter]

Looks to me like your brass had crimped primers. You must remove the crimp before repriming these. You can use your deburring tool for this too.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Brings up an issue I had...

I use the Lee Hand Primer. One of my "presses of the primer" felt really odd, I looked at it and somehow I pushed in the primer sideways. I really don't want to throw it away. Don't like the idea of tossing an explosive for the garbage men to compact in their truck. I'm leery of using the depriming pin to push it out. I guess I could bury it, but that seems a waste of good brass.

Any thoughts?

 

[rcmodel]

It's not going to blow a garbage truck up.

First, you already crushed it in sideways, and it didn't go off.
Right?

The garbage truck doesn't have nearly as much power to crush a primer inside a case as you had at your disposal when you crushed it the first time.

All you need to do is put it back in your press and deprime it, just like all the others you de-primed.

Then take the smashed primer and do with it as you will.

It is no more dangerous now then an empty BIC lighter, or hair spray can, or something equally harmless to the sanitation workers..

rc