C&R hipower

[3screw357]

Does anyone know where I can find one of the old Argentine hi powers.
They were made by FN for the argentiine military or police I can't remember which.
Thanks

 

[Hkmp5sd]

SOG has some....

http://www.southernohiogun.com/surplus_hand.html

 

[Harold Mayo]

Didn't the ATF issue a letter stating that no hi-powers were considered C&R weapons?

 

[albanian]

Didn't the ATF issue a letter stating that no hi-powers were considered C&R weapons?

I doubt it. There are many Hi-Powers that are over 50 years old so how can they NOT be C&Rs? If it is 50 years old, it is a C&R.

 

[gewehr44]

ATF clarified that the Hi-powers from Argentina aren't C&R. I believe they were manufactured in the 60's & later. As an example, the Sistemas from Argentina are C&R even though many of them are less than 50 years old.

 

[Alerion]

In the SOG ad the Hi Powers are not identified as C&R.

Tom

 

[WonderNine]

Argentine HP's are definately not C&R. HP's older than 50 years old are C&R though. Also there are different HP's like the Centennial model which is also C&R although they are not 50 years old.

 

[3screw357]

thanks for all the information guys. I guess I'm going to have to go to my gunstore and have them run the paperwork for me.

 

[Harold Mayo]

I doubt it. There are many Hi-Powers that are over 50 years old so how can they NOT be C&Rs? If it is 50 years old, it is a C&R.

There was a letter issued on not only the Argentinian hi-powers but also on some Belgian and Austrian hi-powers. Not only are they over 50 years old, but they are NOT considered C&R. The age is not the only determining factor. I doubt that a WWII era Colt 1911 is considered a C&R...hell, there are probably still some of those in service today.

 

[RatFink]

Does anyone have any experience with these HP's that SOG is selling? Ive been wanting to replace one that I sold a few years ago, I've allways regretted it and would like to replace it.

How is the quality on these?

 

[Dorrin79]

Ratfink -

I picked up an FM hipower at a gunshow last fall for $300 (same price SOG is selling them for)

My experiences have been mixed (but generally good).

The gun is in good condition, with a dark parkerized finish that has some mild wear in places.

Fit is not as good as that of an FN or Browning; there is some play in the slide-frame fitting.

When i first got it, it was plagued by extraction problems.

I solved these by removing the extractor and cleaning the extractor channel and the extractor spring (which had some gunk crusted on it)

Despite the "looseness" of the gun it is very accurate (I shoot it better than my 1911). The trigger is wonderfully crisp and light (I'd guess right around 5lbs, although I haven't measured it)

All in all a good buy if you can get it for $300 out-the-door. I certainly prefer it to the gun it replaced in my arsenal - a Ruger P89dc.

As the price point approaches $400 I'd be more inclined to get a CZ-75b.

Hope this helps...

 

[RatFink]

Yes, that does help. I have also wanted a CZ-75, but like I said, about 8 years ago I bought a FN High-Power and owned it for about 8 months. I had allways wanted a 1911 so I ended up selling the HP (For more than I paid for it, there was a shortage in CA) and bought a Spingfield 1911A1, and while I love the 1911, I've always regreted selling my HP to pay for it.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I have a few of the inglis browning hi powers and do believe them to be C&R.

 

[glocksman]

There was a letter issued on not only the Argentinian hi-powers but also on some Belgian and Austrian hi-powers. Not only are they over 50 years old, but they are NOT considered C&R. The age is not the only determining factor. I doubt that a WWII era Colt 1911 is considered a C&R...hell, there are probably still some of those in service today.

Do you have a copy of this letter?
The CFR states states that a firearm 50 years old or older is a C&R.

27 CFR 178.11:

Curios or relics.

Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the
current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal,
State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of
museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their
monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or
because of their association with some historical figure, period, or
event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category
may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like
firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value
of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is
substantially less.

Editor’s Note
ATF Publication 5300.11, Firearms Curios and Relics List, consists of
lists of those firearms determined to be curios or relics from 1972 to the
present.

From the ATF C&R list:

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?
As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Do you have a copy of this letter?

Don't have a copy of it but a few of the C&R dealers selling hi-powers a couple of years ago were warning about it. I was going to buy an Austrian police hi-power that was barely over the 50 year old age at the time (1951 or so manufacture) and the web site that it was on warned that the BATFE had issued a letter stating that they could NOT be shipped to a C&R licensee but must be shipped to the holder of a regular FFL.

 

[WonderNine]

Don't have a copy of it but a few of the C&R dealers selling hi-powers a couple of years ago were warning about it. I was going to buy an Austrian police hi-power that was barely over the 50 year old age at the time (1951 or so manufacture) and the web site that it was on warned that the BATFE had issued a letter stating that they could NOT be shipped to a C&R licensee but must be shipped to the holder of a regular FFL.

That's simply not true. It would be a C&R now as would a WWII Colt 1911 that you spoke of.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Just repeating what I read and what I was told, Wondernine. Apparently the dealer/distributor had an official letter to that effect.

 

[Alerion]

Typically the BATF sends letters to all of the licensees affected by a decision. That includes C&R holders. I don't recall seeing anything about Hi Powers in the last couple of years but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Any firearm over 50 years old is C&R based on age alone BUT;

There has to be definative evidence that the particular gun in question meets the age requirements. This is especially tricky for guns whose production spans the limit. For example guns produced from say, 1950-1960. The BATF does not accept that a gun is over 50 based on serial number alone unless there are records that prove production dates. In my example logic would indicate that a serial number in the 10-20% of the production range was produced around 1951/52. Not good enough for the ATF. What's needed is documentation saying that that particular number, or a range including it, was produced prior to the 50 year cutoff. A range spanning the date doesn't cut it either. Documentation saying that s/n's 0001 - XXXX (50% of production) was built by 1955, 49 years ago, still doesn't have to be accepted by the ATF to prove your low serial gun is 50 years old. And the ATF prefers factory records although they do accept well documented research.

BTW, one of my 1911's is very well documented to have been produced in 1918, is C&R, and is very much still in service!

Non-serialized guns, uncommon in military/police guns, aren't considered C&R until the entire production run passes the 50 year mark or some other proof is available.

What I suspect is the case with your Austrian Police Hi Powers is that the guns have to be unmodified. If they were reworked the clock started over at that point. This could have been as simple as reworking the slides and adding a police rollmark. (Especially if they re-serialized the guns!)

Finally, a letter from a couple of years ago may no longer be in effect. In my earlier example, proof that certain guns were produced prior to 1955 doesn't make any of them C&R now. Next year it makes all of them (in that listed range) eligible.


Tom

 

[albanian]

Just repeating what I read and what I was told, Wondernine. Apparently the dealer/distributor had an official letter to that effect.

Again, I doubt it. Gun dealers are not known for being the best source of info on gun or gun laws. In fact, if you took what your average gun dealer told you as fact, you would most likely be in a world of hurt most of the time. I have heard gun dealers say so many stupid things that it is not worth going into right now. There have been a few threads on this topic.

Yes, a 1911 Colt would be a C&R even though it may still be in service somewhere. SKSs are still in service in some parts of the world but they are still C&Rs. Age is not the only determining factor but as long as it is at least 50 years old, it is a C&R by ATF standards. In 50 years even a Glock would be considered a C&R. I can't see them lasting that long and if they did, who would buy them? In 50 years you could get a brand new one that looks just like it, based on the speed at which Glock changes their product line.

 

[mbott]

Again, I doubt it. Gun dealers are not known for being the best source of info on gun or gun laws. In fact, if you took what your average gun dealer told you as fact, you would most likely be in a world of hurt most of the time.

What a simple truth is being spoke here. I've had to educate most of the dealers I've purchased C&Rs from just exactly what a C&R was. If you can prove the date of manufacture is greater than 50 years, it's a C&R per the regs quoted above. It's that simple.

Typically the BATF sends letters to all of the licensees affected by a decision. That includes C&R holders. I don't recall seeing anything about Hi Powers in the last couple of years but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

In the case of the SOG BHP's from a couple of years ago, I think that they (SOG) blew it big time all on their own. In the span of 30 day's I had purchased 2 Argentine HPs: one from SOG and one from a local dealer. Both ended up going back because I was able to determine that they were not C&R as SOG and the dealer thought. Ended up with a FEG PJK-9HP in 9mm then and a Browning MK III in .40 caliber that I picked up just a few months ago. Both are keepers.

--
Mike

 

[Harold Mayo]

Again, I doubt it. Gun dealers are not known for being the best source of info on gun or gun laws. In fact, if you took what your average gun dealer told you as fact, you would most likely be in a world of hurt most of the time. I have heard gun dealers say so many stupid things that it is not worth going into right now. There have been a few threads on this topic.

I sure am glad that you are around to educate me on gun dealers.

 

[Josey]

The Argentine BHP MKII pistos are not C&R for basically two reasons. First, they modified the Browning design. They eliminated the lightening frame machining step to speed production. They were built in the 60s timeframe, so they aren't 50 years old.