C&R question

[kestak]

In my state, I don't need any paperwork if I sell a firearm face-to-face.

If I bought a rifle with a C&R license. If I sell the rifle face-to-face. Do I have to log the buyer in my book? Or I just write disposed and no more information?

Thank you

 

[Twmaster]

Must be logged.

 

[dogtown tom]

kestak In my state, I don't need any paperwork if I sell a firearm face-to-face.

If I bought a rifle with a C&R license. If I sell the rifle face-to-face. Do I have to log the buyer in my book? Or I just write disposed and no more information?

Thank you

Mike is correct.

Before you get your C&R it would be a good idea to read the regulations at ATF.gov

You don't want any surprises later.

 

[morcey2]

In my state, I don't need any paperwork if I sell a firearm face-to-face.

If I bought a rifle with a C&R license. If I sell the rifle face-to-face. Do I have to log the buyer in my book? Or I just write disposed and no more information?

Thank you

You really don't buy "a rifle with a C&R license." Several of the gun stores and pawn shops around me won't accept a C&R, but if I buy a qualifying gun from them it must be logged as an acquisition.

If you dispose of a gun that is C&R eligible, you must log it as a disposition regardless of whether you used your C&R in the acquisition or owned the gun prior to getting a C&R. It doesn't make sense, but that's how the regulations are enforced. You can have disposition entries that have no corresponding acquisition because of things like that.

Matt

 

[Twmaster]

You really don't buy "a rifle with a C&R license." Several of the gun stores and pawn shops around me won't accept a C&R, but if I buy a qualifying gun from them it must be logged as an acquisition.

I don't know where you got that idea but it's flat out wrong.

I have bought many guns from local dealers using my C&R. By law I *must* enter this into my bound book. If the gun was bought FTF or via a 4473 it does not go in your bound book as it was not acquired via your C&R license.

Further any C&R type guns you own prior to getting your C&R do not go onto your bound book. This is made plainly clear in the ATF rules.

If you dispose of a gun that is C&R eligible, you must log it as a disposition regardless of whether you used your C&R in the acquisition or owned the gun prior to getting a C&R. It doesn't make sense, but that's how the regulations are enforced. You can have disposition entries that have no corresponding acquisition because of things like that.

This again is false. The only firearms you are required to record the disposition of in your bound book are firearms you acquired via your license. Say you bought a C&R eligible pistol via a face-to-face transaction. You most certainly would not have to log the purchase or disposition in your bound book as your license was not used to acquire this gun.

Now, if you bought that same pistol off Gunbroker and had it shipped to you using your C&R it would have to be logged both at time of receipt and disposition.

This is from an ATF FAQ:

2/18/05
Q: Let's say BEFORE I get my C&R license, I own several firearms that are C&R eligible. Once I get my license, do I have to enter these firearms into my bound book, or is the bound book ONLY for procurements that I get using my license?

A: You should only use the bound book for curios/relics acquired and disposed of with the license.

 

[akv3g4n]

wrong thread

 

[morcey2]

I don't know where you got that idea but it's flat out wrong.

I have bought many guns from local dealers using my C&R. By law I *must* enter this into my bound book. If the gun was bought FTF or via a 4473 it does not go in your bound book as it was not acquired via your C&R license.

Further any C&R type guns you own prior to getting your C&R do not go onto your bound book. This is made plainly clear in the ATF rules.

Quoting from a letter from the ATF dated October 16, 2006:

You also asked several questions on whether or not a C&R license holder was required to enter in their A&D records C&R firearms that were acquired without benefit of use of their license. Every licensed collector must enter all acquisition of C&R firearms into their A&D records because the firearm is a curio or relic and will be part of their collection. This is required even if their FFL was not used to acwuire the firearm (see 27 CRF 478.125(F) and 18 U.S.C. 923(g)(2)). The regulations also require that the licensee enter all the appropriate information whenever a C&R firearm is disposed.

This again is false. The only firearms you are required to record the disposition of in your bound book are firearms you acquired via your license. Say you bought a C&R eligible pistol via a face-to-face transaction. You most certainly would not have to log the purchase or disposition in your bound book as your license was not used to acquire this gun.

You're partially right. Pre-license firearms don't need to be entered when you get a license, but disposition of qualifying guns needs to be entered. It'll look a little odd, with just a disposition record, but that's what the law says.


Again, from the same letter dated October 16 2006:

Your first question asked whether or not an individual that acquired a C&R license was required to enter the C&R firearms he owned prior to acquiring the license into their acquisition and disposition (A&D) records. In response, there is no oblication for the individual to record C&R firearms acquired prior to the issuance of the license into their A&D records. However, per 27 CFR 478.125(f), any type of disposition of a C&R firearm is required to be entered in the licensee's A&D records, including the firearms that were acquired prior to the issuance of the license.

ATF letter can be found here:

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=20879

The person receiving the letter from the ATF is the same person who wrote up the C&R FAQ that you're referencing. The FAQ that you're referencing hasn't been updated for a very long time due to a myriad of political and personality conflicts between surplusrifle.com and surplusrifleforum.com.
Current official ATF FAQ:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

unofficial and out-of-date FAQ:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/cnrfaq/pdf/cnrfaq.pdf

Being that the ATF is a bureaucratic organization of significant size, they will often issue conflicting opinions depending on who you ask. That said, they went out of their way to clarify many of these issues between 2005 & 2008.

Matt

 

[jonnyc]

Morcey is correct.
You don't really "use" your C&R license as much as you are a C&R Licensee.
Any C&R Eligible firearm you acquire while you are a licensee must be logged into your bound-book. Previously owned eligible firearms do not unless and until you dispose of them. At that time they must be entered as "Previously Owned" and then you fill out the Disposal section as you would any other C&R disposal.