C&R Follow-up Question

[Aguila Blanca]

In considering the possibility of applying for a C&R license, I perused the archives of this forum and found the following thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=103407&highlight=C&R

The second or third post in the thread sort of addressed a question that's key for me, but was not totally clear (or perhaps it was and I'm just not totally clear). Anyhoo --

Two related questions:

1) If a person who already owns some C&R-eligible firearms subsequently acquires a C&R license, do C&R firearms previously purchased still have to be entered into the C&R log book?

2) If a C&R holder for any reason elects to acquire a C&R-eligible firearms through normal channels (i.e. purchase from or through an 01 FFL), does that firearm have to be entered into the C&R log book?

Thanks

 

[CZ 75 BD]

No and No

Only firearms aquired by the use of the C & R go in the book.

 

[Cacique500]

1) Not until you sell/trade the firearm

2) Not until you sell/trade the firearm

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Hmmm ...

Questions by Hawkmoon:

Two related questions:

1) If a person who already owns some C&R-eligible firearms subsequently acquires a C&R license, do C&R firearms previously purchased still have to be entered into the C&R log book?

2) If a C&R holder for any reason elects to acquire a C&R-eligible firearms through normal channels (i.e. purchase from or through an 01 FFL), does that firearm have to be entered into the C&R log book?

Response by Casique500:

1) Not until you sell/trade the firearm

2) Not until you sell/trade the firearm

I hadn't even considered selling, but that's always a possibility, I suppose. Are you saying that even if I acquired a firearm prior to having a C&R license (or after but not using the C&R license), if it's a C&R-eligible firearms I could sell it directly (to another C&R or FFL) without using an FFL on my end, and only at that point does it go into my bound book? But if I were to sell/transfer such C&R-eligible firearm through an 01 FFL then it would not go into my bound book at all?

 

[Cacique500]

Yep

 

[Eightball]

Pardon my ignorance....

...and I am not intending to hijack the thread, but I keep hearing about the innumerable joys of having a C&R. Where do (whom to?) you apply to obtain one of these things ? I also keep hearing all the legal issues, but still am unsure of how to get one. But, maybe I'm just a :banghead: idiot.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Thank you.

 

[WayneConrad]

Only firearms aquired by the use of the C & R go in the book.

Not exactly. C&R firearms that enter or leave your posession while you have a C&R license go in the bound book. It has nothing to do with whether you used the license to do a dealer-to-dealer transfer.

For acquisitions, it does not matter whether you used your C&R license to do a dealer-to-dealer transfer, or whether you filled out a 4473 and had a NICS check when you bought them, or whether dad gave it to you. No matter how a C&R firearm enters your posession, it has to get a "receipt" entry in your book.

But if I were to sell/transfer such C&R-eligible firearm through an 01 FFL then it would not go into my bound book at all?

Any C&R firearm that leaves your posession must get a "disposition" entry in your book. It does not matter how or when you acquired that firearm. If that firearm was not already in your book because you owned it prior to obtaining your C&R license, then you must first enter it into the book as a receipt, then log it out as a disposition.

Whether you sell a C&R firearm to a private individual, or to a dealer, and whether or not you use your C&R to do a dealer-to-dealer transfer, the C&R firearm you sell while you hold a C&R license must get a "disposition" entry in your book. No exceptions.

1) If a person who already owns some C&R-eligible firearms subsequently acquires a C&R license, do C&R firearms previously purchased still have to be entered into the C&R log book?

Not until they leave your posession. Nothing prevents you from entering them into your book prior to then, but you don't have to until you get rid of them.

2) If a C&R holder for any reason elects to acquire a C&R-eligible firearms through normal channels (i.e. purchase from or through an 01 FFL), does that firearm have to be entered into the C&R log book?

Yes. A C&R firearm came into your posession while you held a C&R license, so it gets logged. How it came to you doesn't matter.

 

[wdlsguy]

Where do (whom to?) you apply to obtain one of these things?

http://www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm

You want to order Form 7CR (5310.16) - Application for License (Collector of Curios and Relics).

 

[Chipperman]

WayneConrad is exactly right.

1) If a person who already owns some C&R-eligible firearms subsequently acquires a C&R license, do C&R firearms previously purchased still have to be entered into the C&R log book?

NO

2) If a C&R holder for any reason elects to acquire a C&R-eligible firearms through normal channels (i.e. purchase from or through an 01 FFL), does that firearm have to be entered into the C&R log book?

YES

Selling any C&R also has to be entered, regardless of how/to whom they are sold

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Wayne and Chipperman, thank you.

You have just confirmed for me that obtaining a C&R license would be more of an administrative nightmare for me than a benefit.

 

[Chipperman]

Are you serious???

Don't foget the discount you get from places like Brownell's and Midway.

The C&R is totally worth getting. Each entry of the Bound Book should take you about 45 seconds to make. It's not a big deal

 

[Hkmp5sd]

You have just confirmed for me that obtaining a C&R license would be more of an administrative nightmare for me than a benefit.

It takes longer and involves more paperwork to do a transfer from your local 01-FFL than it does to buy a gun with a C&R FFL.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Why would/should I knowingly and voluntarily enroll in an Alice-in-Wonderland system under which a firearm I already own through having purchased it from (through) an 01 FFL must be entered into a log book of C&R firearms if (and only if) I sell it? And must be entered in said log book even if I sell it to a non-C&R which means that the sale would also go through an 01 FFL.

I don't have time for such idiocy. My sanity is too important to me. The regulations are obviously of Byzantine construction, and I never lived in Byzantium.

 

[Houndawg]

You don't have time to write a few words and numbers in a book? I feel sorry for you. The money you can save buying rifles and the deals you get from places that have dicounts for license holders more than makes up for the couple seconds spent with the extremely tedious (to you) task of filling out a single line in a log book. With the total lack of time you have, do you have time to record checks in your register?

BTW, selling to another individual doesn't require going through a 01 FFL, unless you sell it to someone in another state and have it shipped to them.

More rifles for me. Your loss, my gain.

 

[Cacique500]

2) If a C&R holder for any reason elects to acquire a C&R-eligible firearms through normal channels (i.e. purchase from or through an 01 FFL), does that firearm have to be entered into the C&R log book?

My apologies...the correct answer to this is YES...I didn't read the question correctly the first time! Thanks for the correction Wayne!

 

[dolanp]

Also remember that when the ATF decides to audit your collection you will either have to let them in your house to look at it or take all of your guns down to their local field office.

 

[Chipperman]

and who do you know that has had to go through this?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You don't have time to write a few words and numbers in a book?

It isn't a question of the time. It's a question of tacitly supporting an idiotic system. Plus the additional fact of granting them authority to audit my "collection." (My meager stash hardly rises to the level of "collection," but it's the principle that matters.) I don't care if you don't know anyone who has been audited. The problem is that they can, any time they wish.

If the few dollars saved on Midway discounts is worth it to you gentlemen, then that's your choice. You don't need to feel sorry for me. The information confirms to me that the system is stupid, and therefore I choose not to play. That's my choice.

 

[Houndawg]

They can't just come to your house and audit you. They have to make an appointment and it's pretty much at your convenience. Then you can choose to have them come to you, or you go to them. I've never heard of anybody actually getting an audit. I think when it's done, if ever, it's just to check out somebody suspected of buying a bunch of rifles for their buddies.

Personally, I'd much rather call up AIM, SOG, CDNN, or one of the many other places and order a rifle for cheap and have it delivered to my door than have to go to a dealer, pay an inflated price, fill out a 4473, then have to go back the next day to pick up my gun. Takes me a few seconds to log the rifle in my book and the BATF hasn't called me once in the four years I've had the license. If my buddy or someone else wants to buy one of my rifles that I decide to sell, then he hands me the cash, I spend a few more seconds filling out another line in my book, I hand him the rifle, and we're both happy.

 

[S_O_Laban]

Personally, I'd much rather call up AIM, SOG, CDNN, or one of the many other places and order a rifle for cheap and have it delivered to my door than have to go to a dealer, pay an inflated price, fill out a 4473, then have to go back the next day to pick up my gun. Takes me a few seconds to log the rifle in my book and the BATF hasn't called me once in the four years I've had the license. If my buddy or someone else wants to buy one of my rifles that I decide to sell, then he hands me the cash, I spend a few more seconds filling out another line in my book, I hand him the rifle, and we're both happy.

+1

 

[captain obvious]

You have just confirmed for me that obtaining a C&R license would be more of an administrative nightmare for me than a benefit.

I hope I'm not the only non C&R FFL (only cause i'm 19) here that keeps a written record of the firearms I own.

Also, while we're on the topic, those with a C&R, what exactly do you write down in the logbook and how is it kept (binder, notebook, etc)?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

A BOUND BOOK (the name of the book used to keep the records) can be bought from Brownells, or can be kept in loose leaf, following the guidelines outlined in the federal regs. You get a copy of the regs when you get your license. The Feds want paper/hard copy, and while you can use computers to keep the records, they want a printed copy when they talk with you. (They don't want no stinkin' floppy disks, etc.)

Basically, you list the serial number, importer (if applicable), model, calibre, type of gun {bolt, semi-auto, etc.}, and who you bought it from/sold it to, and when that happened.

The idea, I think, is to be able to trace a gun used in a crime back from the importer or manufacturer, forward to the last owner prior to the crime...

It happens with weapons used in crimes, but since C&R guns aren't USUALLY the type of guns used by criminals, it doesn't happen often for C&R licensees.

A trace and audit does happen with the ATF thinks a C&R licensee is trying to run a gun business out of his house, using the C&R licensee in place of a standard 01 FFL.

You don't have to take your guns with you to an ATF audit; just your records. The only folks I've ever heard of having to do this, were those accused of selling (as a dealer), and the ATF came to see THEM.

The first big order I sent to Brownells after getting my FFL six+ years ago, saved me enough to pay for several renewals. I've since gotten substantial discounts a number of times. I'd continue to get a C&R License even if I never bought another C&R gun -- and its very possible I won't buy another C&R gun.