CA Supe Court,short barrel rifle ruling

[gunsmith]

http://cbs5.com/localwire/localfsne...News/SAWED-OFF-RIFLE-RULIN/resources_bcn_html

HIGH COURT UPHOLDS SF MAN'S CONVICTION FOR POSSESSING ILLEGAL RIFLE
05/15/06 12:15 PDT

SAN FRANCISCO (BCN)

The California Supreme Court ruled today that a person can't be convicted of the crime of possessing a sawed-off rifle unless prosecutors can prove that the defendant knew the weapon was unusually short.

The court upheld the conviction of Sean King of San Francisco for possessing a short-barreled rifle in 2001.

Police found the loaded rifle in the drawer of a workbench in the garage of a house shared by King, his mother and his brother.

The stock of the rifle had been sawed off so that the weapon measured 24 and 1/8 inches. The state's Dangerous Weapons Control Law makes it a crime to possess a rifle less than 26 inches long.

The court said unanimously that prosecutors had to show that King knew the weapon was short in order for him to be convicted of violating the dangerous weapons law.

But the court also said that in King's case, there was undisputed evidence that he was aware of the shortness of the rifle because he admitted at his Superior Court trial that he knew the rifle was in the drawer and had probably picked it up to look at it.

The panel's opinion was written by Justice Joyce Kennard and issued at the court's headquarters in San Francisco.

The court said prosecutors don't have to prove that a defendant knew that a short rifle is illegal or that the defendant knew the exact length of the weapon, but rather only that the defendant was aware it was unusually short.

Kennard wrote, "Short-barreled rifles are illegal simply because they are short, which makes them suitable for unlawful purposes because of their concealability and ease of handling."

The state high court reinstated King's weapons conviction, overturning an appeals court ruling that threw out that charge.

King was convicted of methamphetamine possession and sales as well as possession of the sawed-off rifle. The now-reinstated weapons conviction accounted for eight months of his total sentence of five years and four months in prison.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Short-barreled rifles are illegal simply because they are short, which makes them suitable for unlawful purposes because of their concealability and ease of handling.

The founding fathers would weep.

 

[gunsmith]

huh?

The California Supreme Court ruled today that a person can't be convicted of the crime of possessing a sawed-off rifle unless prosecutors can prove that the defendant knew the weapon was unusually short.

So "I didn't know" is now a legal exemption???

I didn't know it's illegal to convert my AK to full auto, your Honor

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

No big surprise, since Staples v. United States establishes that you have to knowingly violate the NFA to be convicted.

So "I didn't know" is now a legal exemption???

I didn't know the barrel was 15.75" instead of 16" is a legal exemption (if the jury believes you)

I didn't know it's illegal to convert my AK to full auto, your Honor

Not a legal exemption. The difference is in the first case you were mistaken in the facts of the situation (whether or not the gun was full auto). Being mistaken about the law is not an excuse to prosecution in most cases (though like everything, there are exceptions here too).

If the government can show that you knew the gun had a barrel less than 16" or was full-auto, you go to jail - even if you really thought it was legal.

 

[50caliber123]

ignorrance of the law is no excuse. That's what they would say in court

 

[tyme]

Short-barreled rifles are illegal simply because they are short, which makes them suitable for unlawful purposes because of their concealability and ease of handling.

Why then are handguns okay? Where do these short-bus judges come from?

 

[Erebus]

Why then are handguns okay? Where do these short-bus judges come from?

It's not the judge, it's the legislator that wrote the law that states that a shorter than 26" rifle is somehow inherently more dangerous than a 26" rifle or a handgun. It's ludicrous but somehow it makes someone feel like it accomplishes something.

Some people just can't seem to comprehend that the only people that obey gun laws are the ones that they need not be concerned with. They relate the threat to the machine and not the operator.

 

[Master Blaster]

I understand the genesis of the short barreled rifle law can be laid at the feet of Bonnie and Clyde the notorious depression era bank robbers. They liked to take a BAR and saw it off so they could conceal it.

Many lawmen pooped their pants when diminuitive 97 pound Bonnie pulled a 30.06 BAR that had been sawed off and opend fire on them.

Hence the law.

 

[buzz_knox]

No, the law really comes from the repeal of Prohibition. The revenuers needed something to do after they couldn't go after alcohol. Bad idea to have them unemployed, so firearms (including short barrelled rifles which had been in use for centuries, automatic weapons that the elite hated the common folk to have, and silencers which were believed to be used in poaching, not organized crime) were the targets of the day.

 

[Taipei Personality]

So "I didn't know" is now a legal exemption???

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea for an explanation.

 

[ABTOMAT]

One thing I am curious about. Would he have known is was "unusually short" just by picking it up? Or does one normally measure guns they find sitting about in drawers?

 

[444]

I think you guys are missing something here, unless I am reading this wrong:
This guy is not being tried for a violation of the NFA by the feds, he is being tried for a violation of California state law.



If this doesn't convince you of how stupid these laws are, I don't know what would: this whole thing is about 1 7/8" of steel. The arrest, the trial, the lawyers, the judges of the supreme court of California, the media attention etc. are all about 1 7/8" of steel: did he know the steel was there or not ?

 

[buzz_knox]

I think you guys are missing something here, unless I am reading this wrong:
This guy is not being tried for a violation of the NFA by the feds, he is being tried for a violation of California state law.

6 of one, half dozen of another. Most states have a law which roughly mirrors the NFA. It allows them to prosecute when the feds won't, and also allows them to tell their constituency they are "tough on crime."

 

[444]

Maybe, I am not a lawyer.
But, here in Nevada (a couple hours drive to the East of this guy), I can (and do) own short barreled rifles (as well as short barreled shotguns). Yes, I have a tax stamp for them, but that is because of the NFA, not because of Nevada.

 

[waterhouse]

But, here in Nevada (a couple hours drive to the East of this guy), I can (and do) own short barreled rifles (as well as short barreled shotguns). Yes, I have a tax stamp for them, but that is because of the NFA, not because of Nevada.

In Nevada (and Texas as well, the laws are almost identical on this issue), it is illegal on a state level to possess a short barreled rifle or shotgun (Nevada 202.275). However, the section of law does not apply to firearms importers, manufacturers, or "persons to whom such a rifle or shotgun is registered with the United States Treasury."

I would bet that you are correct in that if the NFA had never existed there wouldn't be state level laws, but if the NFA registry disappeared tomorrow then Texas and Nevada (and probably many other states) would have to rewrite their laws in order for new NFA items to be legal in the state.

 

[444]

That is a very misleading post.
The fact is that it is perfectly legal for me as a Nevada resident to own a short barreled rifle. It is legal at both the federal level AND the state level. "In Nevada..............However, the section of law does not apply to firearms...........or "persons to whom such a rifle or shotgun is registered with the United States Treasury."


This guy in kalifornistan can not legally own a short barreled rifle not because of the NFA: the NFA says it IS legal to own a short barreled rifle (contrary to most of what you hear on the internet: it is PERFECTLY legal to own a short barreled rifle per federal law). It is illegal for him because it is illegal in California to own a short barreled rifle per state law. Tax stamp be damned.

 

[buzz_knox]

No, it is not legal to own a short barrel rifle (SBR) under federal law. It is specifically illegal to do so, unless 1) you have a tax stamp or 2) the rifle is grandfathered in.

SBRs are regulated just like automatic weapons and suppressors under the NFA.

 

[waterhouse]

444, I understand, and my point is not to mislead. I am just pointing out that there are state laws in Nevada as well as the federal laws.

It is not I who say a SBR or SBS is illegal. State law says that it is, except under certain circumstances. (That is exactly how the law is written: The following are illegal in general . . . but they may be legal under some circumstances.) I know that you fall under those circumstances. My point is that if you break the federal law you are also breaking a state law.

My other point is that if the Federal government (this will never happen, but one can hope) suddenly said that they no longer required registration of SBS and SBR, you could not just go into the garage and take a hacksaw to your 870 barrel until the state law was changed.

What I am getting at is that you have a tax stamp BOTH because of the NFA and because of Nevada state law.

 

[Amish_Bill]

buzz_knox wrote:

No, it is not legal to own a short barrel rifle (SBR) under federal law. It is specifically illegal to do so, unless 1) you have a tax stamp or 2) the rifle is grandfathered in.

SBRs are regulated just like automatic weapons and suppressors under the NFA.

(ok, OK.... just re-read a little more carefully... looked like you were saying they were illegal en-mass. My Bad.)

 

[LAR-15]

In 1960 the Govt amended the NFA to add the 26" over all length language to the definition of SBR

Most states then followed suit

 

[Carl N. Brown]

IANAL, but while ignorrance of the law is no excuse
it is a mitigating or extenuating circumstance, is it not?

 

[sterling180]

The stock of the rifle had been sawed off so that the weapon measured 24 and 1/8 inches. The state's Dangerous Weapons Control Law makes it a crime to possess a rifle less than 26 inches long.

Similar measures were taken after the Hungerford and Dunblane Massacres,after the legislators decided that an assault-shotgun or handgun was inappropriate,because it has one purpose,which is to kill people with.

There is a minimum of 24" or so on pump and semi-auto shotguns and short-barrelled versions are easy to conceal,etc,etc,not useful for hunting,etc,etc.

The 1988 ban,was ment to stop the sale of Assault weapons,but we still import Benelli M1/3S,SaigaM12s,Mossbergs,Remingtons,etc,etc.Some of what I had listed should have been banned 17 years ago,in terms or features,but it makes a complete mockery of our restrictive laws.

In the Peoples Repulic of The UK you can have any length rifle,in any apperance,but it must be manually-operated. One exeption is .22 rimfire semi-autos/pumps and these can be of any apperance.

The funny thing is that the assault weapons manufacturers,actually supplied us with semi-automatic rifles,that have been specially built,to not have a semi-automatic function-making them bolt-action operational,-only models.

Ruger,Olympic Arms and a few others have been kind enough to cater for The People's Republic Of The UK-and for that we are eternally greatful.

 

[sterling180]

The stock of the rifle had been sawed off so that the weapon measured 24 and 1/8 inches. The state's Dangerous Weapons Control Law makes it a crime to possess a rifle less than 26 inches long.

Oh I forgot to ask a question, on rifle-length legalities.

Does this law under the Dangerous Weapons Control Law,make it an offence to possess any rifle under 26"long? or is it only restricted to assault-weapons or sporting-semi-autos and pump-action rifles?

 

[LAR-15]

I thought shotguns were restricted to 3 rounds there and does 24" mean overall length?

 

[sterling180]

I thought shotguns were restricted to 3 rounds there and does 24" mean overall length?

LAR-15:In the UK there are two types of repeating shotguns,that you can get, on two different licenses.The first is a "Firearms License"(Firearms Certificate) and a shooter can own any manual-operated rifle, any .22 rimfire,any long-barrelled revolver and finally any repeating shotgun with an unrestricted magazine capacity.Note that we are allowed no limits on magazine/clip capacities in the UK as well.

Section 2 weapons are classed as those on a shotgun license and they include:any break-action shotguns-including combinations-and any repeating shotguns with a limited-magazine capacity of upto 3 rounds.

As for the length restrictions,it is at 24"overall length,I think,but I will have to check again,because Im not sure.Folding stocks are still available as after-market stocks-especially those for the Remington models.