CA: time to Zumbo Turner's Outdoorsman re: lead ammo bans

[billwiese]

Hi, Gunnies...

Sometimes you have to hold your enemies close, and your so-called "friends" even closer. Again, our "outdoor" friends - "the duck hunters" - are attacking RKBA, and they're either not bright enough to know, or they're working with a vendor who wants to corner the ammo biz by getting rid of competitive bulk milsurp ammo. They have no idea how such laws can grow, and how this can endanger all sorts of shooting sports in which they may not participate: for the overfocused concern in one arena, they're willing to sell out fellow shooters in others.

We're yet again seeing a disconnect between 'outdoors', 'hunting', and RKBA.

So, it's time to pull out our Zumbo skills! I figure CA THR folks, like Calgunners and CA ARFcommers are in some ways most exposed to effects of these prospective laws: lots of us shoot milsurp ammo, in higher quantities than the usual 'hunter' types.

So, what happened?

I was noodling around the web and, lo, what do I see from Turner's Outdoorsman in LA but another bunch of of Zumbo-like tripe from yet another "outdoor writer", Jim Mathews.

Turner's Outdoorsman, with their accomodation of Mathews, appear to have transitioned into an RKBA-opposing force, which - in the opinion of quite a few of us who like shooting w/milsurp ammo or who enjoy benchrest shooting - needs "Zumboing".

Your voice can help stop this. Howzabout a call to them, telling them you don't like your RKBA to be affected by ammo bans they support, especially from a business that's supposedly a 'friend' of RKBA? That your firearms dollars can and will go elsewhere, since you want to do business with a more rights-friendly gun shop?

Here's Turner's numbers; let 'em know how you feel. Calls are cheap, phone staff time ain't.

Turner's/main #:....... 909-923-3009
Chino Hills #:............ 909-590-7225
Fountain Valley #...... 714-965-5151
Kearny Mesa #......... 858-278-8005
Norwalk #................ 562-929-4056
Orange #................. 714-974-0600
Pasadena #.............. 626-578-0155
Redondo Beach #...... 310-214-8724
Reseda # ................ 818-996-5033
Riverside # .............. 951-351-1190
San Bernardino #....... 909-388-1090
San Marcos #........... 760-741-1570
Signal Hill # ............. 562-424-8628
West Covina # ......... 626-858-8948
​

Emails:
Don Small, President .................... [email protected]
Bill Ortiz, Dir of Store Operations..... [email protected]
Webmaster/website issues............. [email protected]
​

Obviously, Jim Mathews needs to know too: you can write him at

Jim Matthews
Outdoor News Service
PO Box 9007
San Bernardino, CA
92427-0007
email: [email protected]
​

As you all know (please see Mike Haas' discussion about prospective Fish & Game lead ammo bans on http://www.calnra.com), there's a danger of reduced supplies of ammo if such ban(s) go thru. If it goes thru in CA, it can be used as a template elsehwere furthering this nationwide. (You can imagine the price on tungsten-based rifle ammo, too.) Esp dangerous is that this can sneak in as a regulatory matter, and then be used as a basis rationale for further legislative restrictions (i.e., perceived as a safe vote for legislators "because we're already doing it".)

The danger is not the to ammo that this ban supposedly addresses, it's that it will paint lead ammo with such a broad swath that we'll have a de facto ammo ban thru radical supply reduction, and price increase (tungsten, etc.). This will affect pistol and rifle ammo as well - and this could be used as an basis artifice in future CA legislation (right now this is F&G regulatory stuff). Ideas like these are a backward avenue toward gun control thru ammo control and can be as dangerous to gun freedoms as the defeated California ammo bills of last year (and the prospective ones of this year in CA).

See the full article: http://www.turnersoutdoorsman.com/engage/reports_wcommentary.php

Turner's/Matthews nonsense:
A prediction: Lead ammunition will be banned for hunting within the next decade. Not just in condor range, not just in California, but nationwide. It won't be banned for plinking or target shooting, but it won't be allowed in our hunting fields. It will be banned on solid scientific evidence that birds and animals pick up the spent lead in a variety of ways, and when it enters their diet, they can become sick and die.

I'm growing a little weary of the so-called leaders in the hunting community -- especially those in the industry -- whining about how the move to ban lead ammunition is somehow anti-hunting or anti-gun and that it's not based on good science. It's time to wake up and smell the gunpowder. This is a conservation issue plain and simple, and lead ammunition has broad-based impacts -- negative impacts -- on the environment when used for hunting. I'm not going to do an Al Gore and tell you the issue is settled, but if this were a murder trial and you could see all the evidence coming into this courtroom, even the most devout skeptic would convict lead
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Appropriate non-lead bullets for varmint shooting is where I've heard a lot of whining lately (especially since the Tejon Ranch announced its complete ban on lead ammunition for 2008 last week). But fret no more, Barnes has introduced a new frangible bullet featuring a copper-tin composite this year. It's called the Varmint Grenade. Since, it's lighter than lead, varmint shooters will see significant velocity increases with this new slug and explosive results. It's cost is almost identical to premium varmint bullets like Nosler Ballistic Tips or the Hornady V-Max. And Black Hills is already loading the bullet in ammo for varmint hunters. You don't even have to handload, and costs are the same.
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I can tell you that we need to take the high road, but my thinking is simple and self-serving: If by shooting non-lead shot, I can save one dove or quail a year from lead poisoning, that's one more bird and its offspring I can pursue the following season. If by shooting Barnes non-lead bullets, I can help the recovery of condors, see more golden eagles, or bag a big coyote -- all animals that could die when eating lead from my gut piles -- then I'll take the precautions. That's practical conservation.

We already have steel/bismuth ammo for duck areas. Fine; we don't need to take folks' milsurp ammo for range shooting, etc. Birds ain't eating my spent 308 or 223 or 45ACP: the range takes a bulldozer, scrapes it up and sells it back for reprocessing.

Sounds like Turner's wants to be a protected-from-the-marketplace ammo distributorship, and he doesn't like the competition from milsurp ammo.

You'll notice the ammo/bullet prices quoted in his article are "full-bore" pricing.

I'm sure many here remember how our 'friends' in the industry have given us more gun control - the hidden support by large dealer/distributors of SB15 'safe handgun' roster legislation; SASS leadership support of SB15 because their precious single-actions were 'protected species'; some vendors' prospective support of currently-proposed ammo-transfer legislation (including CRPA!). We don't need more of this.

Speak up! The camel is putting his nose in the tent.

BTW - if Turner's is really serious about this - perhaps they'll take all lead ammo off their shelves, now, so they can't be considered talking out their rear ends?



Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

If you read the part of the article you posted, they're not trying to ban lead ammo from ranges. Hunting ammunition is not generally milsurp, it is expensive and manufactured for hunting purposes.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

We need to get the "hunters" and "sport shooters" in step with us. Now. This is a strategy by our enemies to take our guns.

Everytime I hear a "sports shooter" say that's NRA fear mongering, I bring up the Britain and Australia situations, and ask "really?"

 

[buzz_knox]

If you read the part of the article you posted, they're not trying to ban lead ammo from ranges. Hunting ammunition is not generally milsurp, it is expensive and manufactured for hunting purposes.

The effort to ban range ammo is being carried out in court, in the form of lawsuits requiring ranges to pay damages and clean up lead rounds that are contaminating "groundwater."

 

[Prince Yamato]

Is CA trying to tell me that I have to buy Steel Core ammo instead?

 

[RobG5538]

Hey, I duck hunt And I am also very pro RKBA. It is sad to see a split between any type of firearms sports.

Maybe its me but, I see lead warnings on many different things. Turners aside, is it possible it is more of the enviromentalist movement against lead contamination in general?

 

[buzz_knox]

Maybe its me but, I see lead warnings on many different things. Turners aside, is it possible it is more of the enviromentalist movement against lead contamination in general?

It started as part of the environmentalist movement, as well as due to legitimate safety concerns about people eating lead. In large quantities (or in the young), it's dangerous.

It got picked up by the gunbanners, however, and is currently being used as a way to strangle the RKBA. Can't ban firearms outright? Okay, use the hazardous materials laws to 1) make ammunition more expensive and 2) restrict where firearms can be used by suing ranges out of existence. All of that is based on rather spurious science.

Think of it like the fact of humans affecting the environment. That is, without question, a fact. But some use that fact as a bludgeon to affect political change in the direction they want. For example, global warming a threat? No problem. Just enact comprehensive controls that require wealthy nations to restrict their economies and to pay developing nations for the pollution the wealthy created in the past and the developing nations are entitled to continue producing. So, you get a theoretical reduction in greenhouse gases . . . but a guaranteed redistribution of wealth and power from the "wealthy" to the "poor".

 

[billwiese]

Please understand the problems here.

Statements that this doesn't/won't apply to shooting ranges are moot. Once camel's nose is in tent, he starts chewing at your sleeping bag. Once the legal infrastructure is in place, these restrictions can grow.

The relevant statement should be, "It won't affect range ammo - for right now."

Understand also that there's a division between vendors and armed citizens. Vendors (dealers/distributors) would love to restrict milsurp ammo, gunshows, etc. so you have to buy marked-up premium ammo from them.

NSSF actually (under-the-table, in combination with CRPA ninnies) supported California's 'safe handgun' approved-gun roster because it encouraged inventory turn and discouraged competition.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

The effort to ban range ammo is being carried out in court, in the form of lawsuits requiring ranges to pay damages and clean up lead rounds that are contaminating "groundwater."

As they should. Everyone eventually has to be potty-trained, gun owners just like everyone else.

Please understand the problems here.

Statements that this doesn't/won't apply to shooting ranges are moot. Once camel's nose is in tent, he starts chewing at your sleeping bag. Once the legal infrastructure is in place, these restrictions can grow.

The relevant statement should be, "It won't affect range ammo - for right now."

You're talking about an atricle by one person who thinks lead shouldn't be allowed in hunting areas. There isn't a shred of evidence that he has any agenda other than the one he says he has.

Those of us who hunt have a lot more restrictions on where and how we use guns than other shooters. For the most part, those restrictions are for the benefit of the game, and we support them. I don't see anything different about this.

 

[Basura Blanca]

We need to pick and choose our battles in California. Coming down on our allies, in this case Turner's, is low on my priority list.

They're are bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

There's a stupid, feel-good bill proposed in VT right now that could end up banning all lead ammo in the state if it's not killed or at least ammended if passed to exempt ammo from its restrictions. It's by environmentalist types trying to do away with lead in the environment, not gun grabbers, but, the gun grabbers know it's a way to restrict firearms.

Don't give them an inch on this issue. I suspect it'll be one of their new strategies for restricting guns nationwide if they have any major success at it.

 

[feedthehogs]

The effort to ban range ammo is being carried out in court, in the form of lawsuits requiring ranges to pay damages and clean up lead rounds that are contaminating "groundwater."

Known effects of lead poisoning have been around for quite some time. Ranges got lazy and we as shooters are paying the price.

 

[Basura Blanca]

Don't give them an inch on this issue.

Indeed, don't give them an inch... but first make sure you have the right them.

Contact DFG -not Turners. That's the point.