Cabela's screwed up--should I worry?

[Arkansas Paul]

As to who is at fault, they are.

So the person who actually screwed up bears no responsibility and the person who didn't notice it bears all of it?
Responsibility should be shared. And I felt this way in my own situation, which was very similar. It was part my fault and part theirs. I'd lay dollars to doughnuts that this isn't the first time the OP has filled out a 4473 form.

 

[DPris]

SSN,
Have you not been reading the entire thread?
Denis

 

[idaho270]

confused

So I sent my bolt action 30-06 to a gunsmith for some work, and had it shipped back to Cabela's because I needed an intermediary with an FFL license. When I went to pick up the rifle (which I have owned for 5 years) they ran a background check and made me fill out a 4473 through their computer

I am pretty sure others have addressed this.
Why would you need an FFL for a gunsmith repair??
UPS will send gun to gunsmith with out any paperwork just insurance.
I also sent a ruger single six back to ruger for repair, they sent me a shipping label and all i had to do was send it through UPS. It came back with no problem

 

[SilentStalker]

Nope. I was wrong. I contacted my ATF buddy and he said that if the dealer ships it then he must log it and you must do a form. It doesn't make much sense to me since nobody is taking ownership of it but as someone else stated it is when someone takes possession of it as well. So, I guess anyone that has let anyone borrow a gun for a hunt, or shooting clays or whatever is in violation? I mean cause technically that person would be in possession of it. In any case, this could have all been avoided if the OP had just sent it for repairs himself. No form would be needed, no money would need to change hands and it could have been shipped to and from his house. Wow.

 

[DPris]

Sil,
Look at it this way-

It's not just anybody borrowing a gun, you're way over-simplifying it while at the same time making it more complicated than it is.

ATF's presumption is that, WITHIN CERTAIN PARAMETERS, there's an actual "transfer" being made, whether or not that's the reality.
Those parameters are limited in scope, and clearly defined (mostly, anyway).

This does not apply to shipping companies, since ATF can see quite clearly there is NO "transfer" by their definition, and the shipping company is not the "end destination".
It does not (as yet) apply to you letting your buddy shoot your gun at the range (except possibly in Colorado, under their new STATE law).

It is not mere possession under any & all circumstances that determines a "transfer".
ATF has decided that transactions between FFLs must be logged, and made a presumption that if a gun passes through the hands of an FFL-holder IN A NON-REPAIR CONTEXT, it's more likely to involve a "transaction" than not.
That's further affected by crossing state lines.

Gunsmiths have FFLs, too. They have to log guns in & out.
If a gun comes to them from another FFL, it has to be logged out & go back to that FFL.
If it comes in direct from an owner without FFL involvement, it still has to be logged in & out, but ATF regs allow the gunsmith to return to the OWNER direct, without any 4473 or FFL participation at the owner's end.

Rather than requiring each shipper to provide certification in triplicate that there IS no actual transfer of ownership involved, on EVERY shipping event, ATF just establishes a broad policy to cover the big picture, as opposed to scrutinizing each & every shipping event individually.
Trust me- you don't want that.

The current system has its flaws, but it could be far worse.


Idaho,
You don't need an FFL to ship a gun to a gunsmith directly, or to return a gun to its maker. UNLESS local law requires an FFL to handle everything both ways, which I believe is the case in California. Could be wrong on California.

Denis

 

[Grassman]

This has happened to me, but on a new purchase. Had to go back to the store and check one box.

 

[DPris]

Montbars,
Where are you located?
Denis

 

[chrisTx]

My dealer reviews the form, because the last time I filled one out, I messed up a question and had to do it all over again. He said he messed one up once and they just told him not to do it again. I would imagine if it's habitual for a dealer to turn in faulty paperwork, they'd lose their license. You don't have to beat up on the store because a mistake was made. It happens.

 

[DPris]

One or two here & there, they can tolerate.
But, if they get the idea there's a trend becoming apparent, you do not want to be part of the attention-getting smackdown.
Denis

 

[dogtown tom]

Jackal .... I would say include the $50 gift card along with the forms and mail them to me.

Dealer cannot let the 4473 leave his premises.

Rustler....Why should you have to inconvenience yourself - have them send someone to your house...

SharpsDressedMan ....Call Cabelas and have them bring the form out to you for revision when it is convenient for you to meet with them at your house.

btg3 They can deliver or Fedex the forms and include a return envelope.

Doing the above is a violation of Federal law. Licensed dealers can only conduct business at their licensed premises or a gun show.

351 WINCHESTER ...You sent your gun to a gunsmith. You don't need to fill out a 4473.

No law prohibits a dealer from requiring a 4473 or NICS on a gun returned for gunsmithing. Some big box stores make it a practice on all transactions.

DPris If Cabela's shipped the gun elsewhere for repair, as an FFL holder, the gun had to ship back to Cabela's, and Cabela's then had to do the 4473 transfer.

The OP could have Cabelas ship it to the manufacturer for repair, the manufacturer returns it to Cabelas who COULD log it out to the OP without a 4473 by noting in their bound book that the firearm was returned to the customer after being repaired.

ngnrd .....Correcting a 4473 isn't rocket surgery, folks. THIS is what the ATF says about it. But the most important thing is the following...
"Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should any changes or additions be made to the original Form 4473 after the transfer of the firearm has occurred."

This.
(and its been covered in several previous threads on THR.

DPris .....By "person", in that context, they're talking about an individual everyday non-FFL holder.
Anytime an FFL-holding business entity takes in a gun, it has to be logged in. Once logged in, it has to be logged out. That log-out (with gun physically leaving the FFL premises) can be a transfer to another FFL (in which case no 4473) or to a non-FFL (which DOES require a 4473).

NavyLCDR response wasn't incomplete..........it's spot on.
Every entry in a dealers bound book does not need a 4473.......and ATF clearly says firearms that were returned for gunsmithing do not require a 4473/NICS.

DPris .....The problem could have been avoided to begin with by avoiding FFL involvement, if that were possible where OP lives.
If it wasn't possible, then once FFL involvement began certain things kicked into place.

FFL involvement has nothing to do with it. Cabelas could have transferred the firearm back to the OP without a 4473 because Federal law specifically allows such. Cabelas seems to have a policy that requires a 4473 for ALL transactions.

 

[DPris]

Tom,
Cabela's could not log out a return to owner without a 4473 because THEY were not the facility that repaired it. Once they shipped it on, different ballgame.

Guns returned from gunsmithing do not need a 4473 IF returned TO THE NON-FFL-HOLDING OWNER/SHIPPER DIRECT FROM THE GUNSMITH.
You use an FFL as an intermediary, you fill out the 4473 when the gun comes back.

I said quite clearly above that not every log-in entry done by an FFL requires a 4473.


Cabela's could not have released the gun on return without a 4473, because ATF regs DO NOT allow that, in the circumstances listed.

You are not following the layout here.
Denis

 

[dogtown tom]

DPris Tom,
Cabela's could not log out a return to owner without a 4473 because THEY were not the facility that repaired it. Once they shipped it on, different ballgame.

Nothing in ATF regulations mention anything about a "facility".

If a person brings a firearm to a dealer for repair:
Dealer logs it into his books as an aquisition for repair.
Dealer can work on it himself or send it to another.....if he sends it to another licensee he notes that in his book as a disposition.

When firearm is returned to the dealer, he again logs it as an aquisition and then notifies his customer that his firearm is ready.

When the dealer hands it to the customer he notes disposition in his book as "repaired firearm returned to (customers name and address).

You use an FFL as an intermediary, you fill out the 4473 when the gun comes back.

Not true.
When I first began firearm transfers I did exactly that until my IOI pointed out it was NOT required.

More than one manufacturer even does this:
Customer brings his Taurus Clunker 2000 for me to mail back to Taurus. They repair the firearm and then returned it directly to the customer.

 

[DPris]

Tom,
This has been explained in detail, and ATF HAS tightened up the past couple years.
If you want to create your own regs & interpret theirs any way you want, it's your life & your problem.
Denis

 

[dogtown tom]

DPris Tom,
This has been explained in detail, and ATF HAS tightened up the past couple years.

Then please post the source of that detailed explanation.

If you want to create your own regs & interpret theirs any way you want, it's your life & your problem.

Oh please.
I haven't created any of my own regs and the only interpretation I've had is straight from my IOI at my first compliance inspection.

 

[DPris]

Gotten way beyond pointless.
Sil got the same answer as what I've said here when he contacted his ATF acquaintance.
Done.
Denis

 

[WALKERs210]

deleted

 

[larryh1108]

We also have to remember (and it has been mentioned) that some states and some companies require different ways of handling this.

When I returned a handgun to Kimber, Kimber told me that if I sent it to them directly (with their pre-paid label) that they could send it directly back to me. They told me if I sent it to them thru a FFL dealer that they had to return it to the FFL dealer since that's who they received it from.

When I sent a pistol to Ruger they told me the same thing but I was living in a different state. The factory can return it directly to the customer if that customer sent it directly to them (returned adult signature required).

I've also had to fill out a form 4473 to take back a pistol on consignment that did not sell.

I believe that if you lend a buddy a rifle who lives in the same state you (and he) should be protected from tranfer violations due to the "gun show loophole" but if your buddy lived in a different state and came to yours to hunt and you lent him a rifle and you were not with him, I would not wish to go thru that mess. If you were with him, you can claim he was holding it while you tied your shoes.

So, every state and every business has their own rules, above and beyond the federal rules, when talking transfers. No one answer covers all states.

 

[PavePusher]

Sigh. This entire thread is Exhibit A for why the entire BATFE should be abolished, along with all of its rules and regs.

When all the intelligent people here can't figure this stuff out in 3 pages of discussion, and the BATFE can't even answer coherently and completely, it's time for torches and pitchforks.

 

[NMPOPS]

If you screwed up, would you want them to help you fix it?

I bet, Yes...

Agreed

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

 

[NavyLCDR]

DPris,

Just because you claim the Form 4473 is necessary does not make it true. Sportsman's Warehouse hasn't had a problem. Dogtown tom hasn't had a problem. The ATF says it is not requried. We've both presented our sides and evidence for our claims... it's up to the individual FFL to decide what they are going to require, and up to the customer to decide what they are willing to put up with. Customers need to ask up front, though, what the requirements are going to be, and if they don't like them, go to another store/FFL. Maybe what the FFL is requiring is the law...maybe it is just their CYA conservatism. But just because one particular FFL claims it is required by law does not make it true.

 

[dogtown tom]

PavePusher Sigh. This entire thread is Exhibit A for why the entire BATFE should be abolished, along with all of its rules and regs.

When all the intelligent people here can't figure this stuff out in 3 pages of discussion, and the BATFE can't even answer coherently and completely, it's time for torches and pitchforks.

ATF didn't invent the NFA of 1934 or the Gun Control Act of 1968.

OUR elected Congressmen did.

 

[Rob G]

When all the intelligent people here can't figure this stuff out in 3 pages of discussion

Actually dogtown tom pretty much settled it in one posting, as did NavyLCDR back on page 1 I believe it was. This is also not the first time this issue has been discussed here and the answer hasn't changed any since the last time. The fact that some people can't admit when they're wrong is the only reason this has become so confusing.

OP: It sounds as though you're being really reasonable about the whole thing and I think Cabela's should be happy that you are. Ultimately I side with the "4473 not required" crowd as this has been my experience as well. But if they're going to insist on one then it should be properly filled out and as has been noted the proper way to correct an error is to return to the place of business and make the correction on a copy of the orginial form, then properly dating and intialing the change.

 

[ExTank]

Is Cabela's just doing a "CYA" thing with the paperwork?

Being as I work for a large company that also deals with government regulations (though much less onerous than the BATF!), I can understand that top-down CYA paperwork requirements are NOT the choice of the "guy in the field" dealing face-to-face with the customer.

 

[TennJed]

I can't believe there is 3 pages on this. No offense to anyone, but it shows how selfish society has become. It shouldn't even be a question. Correct the mistake. Be a decent human being. How often have you made a mistake at you job? So what if it cost a few bucks in gas and wear and tear? That is the cost of being a decent person.

Everybody here drives their car to do unimportant things. Do you cry "gas, wear and tear"? No. If it is self-serving it is ok. It amazes me the mentality of entitlement and selfishness that has taken over this country. Everything has to be about ME. People think they deserve something for doing the right thing.

 

[MattShlock]

Take...

...The High Road!!!