Phil from Kansas
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I understand that the leading 30 in 30-06 and 30-30 means that the diameter is .3", but what do the second pair of numbers mean?
Caliber designation
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gotboostvr
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-06 is the year it was formalized.
-30 was the powder weight charge, similar to 45-70, but not black powder.
-30 was the powder weight charge, similar to 45-70, but not black powder.
Garandimal
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7.62x63mm refers to the case length.
GR
GR
Alaskan Ironworker
Member
How about 7mm-08 lol. Im not helping am I.
Just to be clear.
30.06-30 refers to it being a 30 caliber bullet. The -06 is the year that particular cartridge was adopted
30.30-The first 30 refers to it having a 30 caliber bullet. The second 30 refers to 30 grains of smokeless powder. Prior to smokeless powder it was common to name cartridges after their caliber and the load of black powder used. Example...45-70, 38-55 etc.
The 30-30 It was first made by Winchester as the 30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) in their Model 94. It was named the 30-30 Smokeless (later 30-30 Winchester) by Marlin in their model 1893 but it's the same cartridge. Winchester 94s were all marked 30 WCF until sometime after WWII when they changed to the more common adopted name, 30-30 Winchester.
30.06-30 refers to it being a 30 caliber bullet. The -06 is the year that particular cartridge was adopted
30.30-The first 30 refers to it having a 30 caliber bullet. The second 30 refers to 30 grains of smokeless powder. Prior to smokeless powder it was common to name cartridges after their caliber and the load of black powder used. Example...45-70, 38-55 etc.
The 30-30 It was first made by Winchester as the 30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) in their Model 94. It was named the 30-30 Smokeless (later 30-30 Winchester) by Marlin in their model 1893 but it's the same cartridge. Winchester 94s were all marked 30 WCF until sometime after WWII when they changed to the more common adopted name, 30-30 Winchester.
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someguy2800
Member
And some of them are just complete nonsense, such as 327 federal which is actually .312 caliber.
Then you have .218 bee, .219 zipper, 220 swift, 221 fireball, 222 rem, 223 rem, 224 valkyrie, 225 winchester, 5.56 nato, 5.6x57 and 5.7x28 that all use the same bullet.
Then you have .218 bee, .219 zipper, 220 swift, 221 fireball, 222 rem, 223 rem, 224 valkyrie, 225 winchester, 5.56 nato, 5.6x57 and 5.7x28 that all use the same bullet.
Jim Watson
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Then you have .218 bee, .219 zipper, 220 swift, 221 fireball, 222 rem, 223 rem, 224 valkyrie, 225 winchester, 5.56 nato, 5.6x57 and 5.7x28 that all use the same bullet.
Well, the same diameter bullet.
But .22 Remington Jet and .22 Savage High Power don't.
It's not that there is no system of nomenclature, it is that there are several and you just have to know which one you are looking at. And, as above, there is advertising.
Oh, yeah, the British do it the other way 'round. A .450-.400 is .40 caliber, not .45.
.308 Norma
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That depends....
I once had a sales guy behind the counter in a sporting good store ask me, "Now what's the difference between a 7mm-08 and a regular 7mm?"
CapnMac
Member
Some of this was all hold-over from earlier times.
There were several rounds called "30 Government" or "30 Army" back in the day.
Starting with the .30-40 Krag (the -40 referring to the powder charge, a common thing among BP loads)
Then, there was the Cal..30, Model of 1903 (.30-03)
Followed by the Cal..30, Model of 1906 (.30-06)
There's been a long tradition of mish-mashing things to name them.
There were several rounds called "30 Government" or "30 Army" back in the day.
Starting with the .30-40 Krag (the -40 referring to the powder charge, a common thing among BP loads)
Then, there was the Cal..30, Model of 1903 (.30-03)
Followed by the Cal..30, Model of 1906 (.30-06)
There's been a long tradition of mish-mashing things to name them.
High Plains
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Let’s not forget the even numbered cartridges——250-3000 Savage, 260 Rem and 280 Rem, the big cased 300s, the 340 Weatherby, 350 Win and my favorite pistol cartridge with a false name, the 44 Magnum which is really a .429 caliber.
The European form of caliber x case length is fine, but the Americans wanted easy and colorful names to go with their company, ergo the 30/06 Springfield, 270 Winchester, 257 Weatherby, etc.
The loved / hated 6.5mm Creedmoor and the 450 Alaskan are two of the few sort of named for a place.
The European form of caliber x case length is fine, but the Americans wanted easy and colorful names to go with their company, ergo the 30/06 Springfield, 270 Winchester, 257 Weatherby, etc.
The loved / hated 6.5mm Creedmoor and the 450 Alaskan are two of the few sort of named for a place.
gotboostvr
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You wouldn't belive the flak I caught in a gun store for saying that. Someone had an old box of European ammo so designated and was asking for help from the clerk who was also clueless. I over heard and voiced my thought, got pooh-poohed that I "had no idea what (I) was talking about".
Showed them a SAAMI drawing showing where the 63 designation came from and got a couple profanities thrown my way by the clerk.
They're out of business now.
.308 Norma
Member
"Caliber designation"
There...I said it. Now lets here all the flak from the "as long as everybody understands" crowd.
Actually, neither "30-06" nor "30-30" are "caliber designations," they're both "cartridge designations."
There...I said it. Now lets here all the flak from the "as long as everybody understands" crowd.
There is no single recognized system for cartridges to be named. Over the years it has been done numerous ways. When the 1st cartridge guns were developed replacing muzzle loaders it was common to list caliber 1st, then the amount of powder in grains. Examples are 30-30, 45-70, 50-90 etc. Occasionally bullet weight was included, 45/70/405.
But as time went on basically every person who developed a new cartridge named it however they wished, and sometimes they cheated. The 38 Special is actually 35 caliber, but Smith & Wesson thought that people wouldn't trust a 35 caliber round. The 44 Special and 44 Magnum are actually .429 caliber for the same reason.
Some used the measurement of the lands, some the groves of the barrel. A 300 Savage shoots the same bullets as a .308. It just depends on where you measure.
And then you get into cartridges developed in Europe and the rest of the world on the metric system. But once you understand it, the rest of the worlds system makes more sense. Until politics gets involved. The 7X57 was developed in Germany, but the British refused to call it 7X57. They called it 275 Rigby. Same cartridge.
But as time went on basically every person who developed a new cartridge named it however they wished, and sometimes they cheated. The 38 Special is actually 35 caliber, but Smith & Wesson thought that people wouldn't trust a 35 caliber round. The 44 Special and 44 Magnum are actually .429 caliber for the same reason.
Some used the measurement of the lands, some the groves of the barrel. A 300 Savage shoots the same bullets as a .308. It just depends on where you measure.
And then you get into cartridges developed in Europe and the rest of the world on the metric system. But once you understand it, the rest of the worlds system makes more sense. Until politics gets involved. The 7X57 was developed in Germany, but the British refused to call it 7X57. They called it 275 Rigby. Same cartridge.
Phil from Kansas
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Thanks!
NIGHTLORD40K
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How about .38-200? .38 caliber with a 200gr. bullet.
Then ya got .250-3000 Savage. .25 caliber good for a nominal 3000 Feet Per Second velocity.
Oh, and dont forget .38-44, which is actually just a hot-loaded .38 Special designed to be fired from a .44 Special-framed revolver.........
Your head hurt yet?
Riomouse911
Member
Many (certainly not all!) European cartridge designations make a little bit of sense.
7x57 means a 7mm bullet in a 57 mm rimless case.
Add a rim, add an R. 7.62x54R. 7.62mm bullet (.30 cal) in a 54mm case with a rim.
There are some goofy ones, like was mentioned above; the 8x50R, which refers to two completely different rounds so you need to be sure what your gun shoots. Same with 8x57, which is really 7.92x57 but I guess the 8 was easier to use. (Lengthy backstory on this round due to a change in bullet diameter so there are some old guns that can’t use some ammo. Too long to write it all, Google it)
In the US and to a lesser extent, England, there is no real rhyme or reason.
Cartridges may be by describing a bore or powder charge size; like .44-40 or .40-65.
The bore and cartridge case size like .45 2 3/4”.
The original cartridge designer; .257 Roberts.
By advertised performance; .250-3000.
By the company that sponsored it, .357 SIG or .404 Jefferey.
By the parent case; like the .450-.400 or .338-378.
By a tinkerer who changed the original case dimensions like the .280 Ackley Improved.
Or, for Lord knows whatever reason, something else like the .22 Hornet or .350 Legend. (Confused yet?)
Get a volume of Cartridges of the World if you’re interested, it’s the supreme reference work for anyone interested in cartridges.
You can spend years trying to figure out which is what.
This is why gun stuff is so fun, you’ll probably learn something new everyday.
Stay safe.
7x57 means a 7mm bullet in a 57 mm rimless case.
Add a rim, add an R. 7.62x54R. 7.62mm bullet (.30 cal) in a 54mm case with a rim.
There are some goofy ones, like was mentioned above; the 8x50R, which refers to two completely different rounds so you need to be sure what your gun shoots. Same with 8x57, which is really 7.92x57 but I guess the 8 was easier to use. (Lengthy backstory on this round due to a change in bullet diameter so there are some old guns that can’t use some ammo. Too long to write it all, Google it)
In the US and to a lesser extent, England, there is no real rhyme or reason.
Cartridges may be by describing a bore or powder charge size; like .44-40 or .40-65.
The bore and cartridge case size like .45 2 3/4”.
The original cartridge designer; .257 Roberts.
By advertised performance; .250-3000.
By the company that sponsored it, .357 SIG or .404 Jefferey.
By the parent case; like the .450-.400 or .338-378.
By a tinkerer who changed the original case dimensions like the .280 Ackley Improved.
Or, for Lord knows whatever reason, something else like the .22 Hornet or .350 Legend. (Confused yet?)
Get a volume of Cartridges of the World if you’re interested, it’s the supreme reference work for anyone interested in cartridges.
You can spend years trying to figure out which is what.
This is why gun stuff is so fun, you’ll probably learn something new everyday.
Stay safe.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Shoot, I think the Lebel rifle alone had at least 5 different 8mm cartridges all by itself!
swg1
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BigBlue 94
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30-06 is the spitzer bullet version of the 30-03
38-40 is a 40 caliber in front of 40gr of BP
22 Savage HP uses a .229 bullet: has a european designation of 5.6x53R
50 Beowulf can only be called 50 Beowulf by Alexander Arms and licensees. Others use 12.7x42
32 Colt New Police is the exact same thing as 32 S&W long. Colt didnt want S&W on their guns. Same with 32WCF as 32-20 and 38WCF and 44WCF as 38-40 and 44-40 respectively.
38 Short Colt uses a .361 bullet whereas most 38s use a .358 bullet.
.358 diameter rifle bullets are 35 caliber, but .358 pistol bullets are 38 caliber.
7.92x57 comes in rimless, rimless with a smaller (.323 vs .318) bullet, and rimmed versions.
38-40 is a 40 caliber in front of 40gr of BP
22 Savage HP uses a .229 bullet: has a european designation of 5.6x53R
50 Beowulf can only be called 50 Beowulf by Alexander Arms and licensees. Others use 12.7x42
32 Colt New Police is the exact same thing as 32 S&W long. Colt didnt want S&W on their guns. Same with 32WCF as 32-20 and 38WCF and 44WCF as 38-40 and 44-40 respectively.
38 Short Colt uses a .361 bullet whereas most 38s use a .358 bullet.
.358 diameter rifle bullets are 35 caliber, but .358 pistol bullets are 38 caliber.
7.92x57 comes in rimless, rimless with a smaller (.323 vs .318) bullet, and rimmed versions.
swg1
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Fine advice, purchasing a reloading manual (and reading it) would go a long ways for many questions I see posted in this forum. Cartridges of the World would provide an expansive look at the subject as well.
.308 Norma
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This is one of my favorite books. It's probably also my "most often referred to" book, and I've been around guns and shooting my whole life - almost 73 years.
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