caliber selection for Colt Single Action Army

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Redpan

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Escondido Calif, north of San Diego
I recently bought a 2nd gen. Colt SAA .357 magnum with the 4 1/2" barrel. It was pitted on the left side. Along with the pitting, someone had tried to learn how to engrave on the gun and really screwed it up. I was sure it could be saved with a little work and patience. What I liked about it was that internally it is like brand new, everything is very tight with no signs of wear.

While cleaning up the bad engraving and pitting, I came across a clean 5 1/2" 357 barrel and bought it, thinking to save myself some work on the pitted barrel. Originality is not a concern, I planned to use the longer barrel, engrave everything and make it my daily shooter.

With my plans set and the project under way, I then came across a super deal on a very nice cylinder and two barrels for a .44 special, one barrel is 5 1/2" the other is 7 1/2" ...all 2nd generation, all of it like new!

If I understand correctly, the .44 special gear will work with the 357 frame. Now is the time to choose which way I should go with this. I like the looks of the long barreled 44 special but is the 357 a better shooter??

Which is the better setup?

I'm not particularly enamored with a 357, but I don't know ANYTHING about the .44 special.

Any suggestions from the group??
 
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The .357 has the advantage of Cheep Bullets which seems to motivate a lot of the Internet Experts.
.44 and .45 feel better in MY hands without all the weight of smallbore barrel and cylinder.
I have a .44 Special SAA with fitted .44-40 cylinder for CAS with a .44 WCF lever action.

Are you equipped to fit barrels and cylinders?
 
If you can reload and plan to use it for just general shooting fun, the .44 Special sounds fine to me. It's not as common, but it's plenty common enough. Running at a lower pressure, it'll probably also be easier on the gun.
 
I'd switch to .44 Special in a nanosecond, but I hunt with revolvers so base my decision as such. For just general plinking the 357 will be a better choice.
One other thought though, I'd bet a .44 Special would have a significantly better resale value.

35W
 
I've always felt that the .357 SAAs are just too heavy. They don't balance right for me.
With .38spl loads that gun will feel like a .22, which could be a good thing.
.38/.357 is more common than .44spl. .44 will do pretty much whatever you need to do, but unless you reload, ammo will cost more.
Personally I go .44.
 
As far as fitting up the .44 barrel and cylinder, I work with and through a local gun shop. The gun mechanic there is very good with single action pistols and can take care of all the machine work for proper spacing for me.
(Eventually I will be self loading).

What concerned me was that after I had acquired all these neat pieces, he told me that it was his opinion that one of the least desirable calibers was the 357...followed by the 44 special.

In other words the 44 was at the bottom of his list. Looking at the internet blogs today, I'm beginning to think it is just that...His opinion...
A lot of people seem quite pleased with the 44 so I was looking for some justification for building this to one caliber or the other.

Why would the .44 be a better hunting cartridge than the .357? It's bigger yes, but the 357 has more punch doesn't it? I'm still learning here, be patient.

Regarding the resale value, if I ever sell it, I was thinking the same thing, a .44 has a lot more appeal than the .357
It was my intention all along to try and save this little sad sack and it's coming along fine. I just finished all the metal work today and it's about ready to engrave.

Check out my web site
gunengraver.org

Thanks for all the input, very helpful
 
As far as fitting up the .44 barrel and cylinder, I work with and through a local gun shop. The gun mechanic there is very good with single action pistols and can take care of all the machine work for proper spacing for me.
(Eventually I will be self loading).

What concerned me was that after I had acquired all these neat pieces, he told me that it was his opinion that one of the least desirable calibers was the 357...followed by the 44 special.

In other words the 44 was at the bottom of his list. Looking at the internet blogs today, I'm beginning to think it is just that...His opinion...
A lot of people seem quite pleased with the 44 so I was looking for some justification for building this to one caliber or the other.

Why would the .44 be a better hunting cartridge than the .357? It's bigger yes, but the 357 has more punch doesn't it? I'm still learning here, be patient.

Regarding the resale value, if I ever sell it, I was thinking the same thing, a .44 has a lot more appeal than the .357
It was my intention all along to try and save this little sad sack and it's coming along fine. I just finished all the metal work today and it's about ready to engrave.

Check out my web site
gunengraver.org

Thanks for all the input, very helpful

Sounds like the gun mechanic needs to stick to fixing guns. :D

Handloaded or with good custom factory loads such as Buffalo Bore, the .44 Special is off the chart better for hunting than a .357; bigger bullet, bigger hole, etc.

I own nine single actions; three .357's and six .44 Specials. The 357's languish on a shelf in the closet while the .44's are shot every week. I could easily do without the .357's were it not for my wife occasionally shooting CAS.

Build the .44 and don't look back.

35W
 
Redpan

I'm a big fan of the .44 Special so my biased opinion would tell you to build your Colt SAA in .44 Special and start handloading. Look forward to seeing the finished engraved gun.
 
I think if you like the .44, that's definitely what you should go with.

I'm not sure how heavy of a load the SAA can take, but even at normal .44 Special levels with a good hard cast bullet, it'd be fine for deer hunting and as useful as a .357 for defense against animals.
 
Plus, it won't make your ears bleed from muzzle blast without hearing protection in the woods like a .357!!

rc
 
I think my 44 special is more fun to shoot than my 357. Either one will kill a human or a deer with reasonable shot placement. The 357 has the advantage of shooting cheap mild 38's. I don't know what calibers you already have guns for. That might affect your decision.
 
If this topic needs yet another brick on the truck there was a reference in another recent thread about how .44Spl was the darling among serious bullseye shooters for a while some decades back. So obviously the round is capable of some good accuracy if the shooter is able and some time taken to find out what bullet weight, diameter and charge is loved by the barrel.

I love my .38's/.357's. But if in the same boat as you I'd have the .44 parts already in that frame. But I already reload for my .44Magnums. So adjusting the dies or getting a new set for a dedicated .44Spl setup would not be a big deal.

EDIT- Here's the thread about .44Spl target guns.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=764354
 
Measure the throats of each chamber of the cylinders before making a decision. Colt specs are all over the scale. If the 44 Special cylinder specs are too large a gunsmith that knows his stuff could rechamber the .357 one making for a very accurate gun.
 
If you reload, the 44 spl can be safely loaded to much better performance than the 357 as a field cartridge, and as was mentioned, without the ear splitting muzzle blast. The 44 spl was used for heavy field loads by handloaders before the 44 mag came along, and loading manuals routinely listed fairly heavy loads, none of which would bend your gun, despite well intentioned but incorrect warnings from keyboard experts.

I'd take a 44 spl Colt over a 357 and not think twice. I has a 44 spl Single Action Army, it was one of my all time favorite guns.

If you let this get away from you, in a few years you'll realize how rare an opportunity it was a kick yourself.
 
One factor is that an SAA in .38 or .357 will be a good bit heavier than one in .44 or .45.

Jim
 
Thank you one and all, this has been an interesting experience in gaining a little knowledge about the .44 special. This is the first time I have ever used a blog site and I must say I have enjoyed your input, especially with all the other web sites that have been referenced. I read everyone of them.

I feel comfortable with the encouragement to go with the .44 special, so that's the direction I'm taking this.

I stopped by the gun shop today and found out that the mechanical modifications are not difficult at all. If and when I get this thing engraved I will re-post with all the photos...

OR, perhaps this will work better...

My son recently showed me how to use Yahoo Drop Box to share photo files, so if anyone is interested in seeing this gun or other recently engraved guns,
you can contact me for access to my photo files at...

[email protected]

Email me and I will connect anyone interested.

thanks again for all the help,
Mike (Redpan)
 
Howdy

I picked up this 1st Gen Bisley Colt a year or two ago. It is chambered for 44 Special. No, it did not leave the factory chambered for that round, I do know that much, but I do not know what caliber it was when it left the factory.

Anyhoo, I actually enjoy shooting it with Black Powder loaded 44 Russian rounds. I have several antique Smiths chambered for 44 Russian, so to keep things simple if I bring this Bisley to a match with one of the Smths I shoot them both with 44 Russians. BP loaded 44 Russians have a very mild recoil in a large revolver like this.

BisleyColta.jpg



My favorite caliber for a SAA is 45 Colt, like the 2nd Gen at the top of this photo. But 44 Special is a great cartridge too. Of course I am biased because I have a whole bunch of Smiths chambered for 44 Special.

bisleyandpeacemakercomparison01.jpg

44 Special was developed in 1908 for the S&W New Century revolver, better known as the Triple Lock. The cartridge is simply a lengthened 44 Russian. 44 Russian was one of the premier target rounds of the 19th Century, and the most common big bore round that the old S&W Top Breaks were chambered for.

A SAA can take any SAAMI Max load without any problem. SAAMI Max pressure for 44 Special is 15,500 PSI as opposed to 14,000 PSI for 45 Colt. Everybody knows that heavy 44 Special loads were the inspiration for the 44 Mag, and the extra wall thickness of a 44 over a 45 helped in that aspect. I don't hunt, but if I did I'm sure a 240 grain bullet coming out of a 44 Special revolver at 800 or so fps would do everything I needed it to.
 
Absolutely beautiful guns shown!!! Thanks for sharing.

I'm curious, can the 44 special In a Colt single action frame be safely loaded in a 200 to 240 grain bullet at 1000 to 1200 fps?

Are all you guys hunting with 800 fps rounds?

I've read a lot of comments posted above about reloading for this .44 special, apparently a lot of you guys reload your own ammo. I have never done reloading before but I expect to be getting into this just for the sake of over all costs.

I will be joining a shooting club soon and will be at the range 3 or 4 times a month. I have managed to accumulate about 25 guns of all different calibers and configurations. The only thing I have used so far has been factory loads bought at the store. Sooner or later I need to get set up for reloading.

I would imagine it can get quite expensive for all the equipment. For that reason I would prefer to find a good used setup and start with that. I understand rifle and pistol ammo can sometimes be reloaded from the same setup by changing dies????

Obviously I don't need every thing all at once, but here are the calibers that I could possibly be using the reloading equipment for:

PISTOL ammo:
9mm,
45 acp,
44 mag,
and now the 44 special
and eventually I hope to own a Ruger, Bisley frame in the .475 Linebaugh (I'm still working on that trade)

RIFLE ammo:
30.06,
308.
30-30,
32 special,
25-35,
38-55


Any suggestions for what I need and where to find it? Name brands? What to avoid in the way of dumb mistakes?

And books, I need books so I don't blow myself up. Where would I find literature on how to do this safely? I'm at the bottom of the learning curve and I need good information.

Help, suggestions, recommendations and "information web sites" are all welcome.

Thanks again for all your help, so far this has been a lot of fun for me.

Mike (Redpan)
 
I'm curious, can the 44 special In a Colt single action frame be safely loaded in a 200 to 240 grain bullet at 1000 to 1200 fps?

Are all you guys hunting with 800 fps rounds?

Howdy Again

I don't hunt, so I cannot answer the second question. It is usually a mistake to refer to a particular loading just by velocity (1000 to 1200 fps). The most important thing is what is the pressure generated by a particular load.

Remember, pressure, not velocity.

For many years the most common load for 44 Special was a 246 grain bullet moving about 700 fps out of a 4 inch barrel. No, I do not know what the pressure was.

Any reputable loading manual will list loads, usually with a starting load and a Maximum load. They all give velocities for these loads, they seldom list pressure. So you have to rely on the manual to keep you to safe pressures. As I said earlier, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute), sets the maximum safe pressure for 44 Special at 15,500 psi. You will sometimes see loads listed using the Copper Units of Pressure (CUP) data. It is difficult to reconcile the two together. Regardless, any reputable loading manual will list loads that do not exceed the SAAMI Max pressure. My Speer Reloading Manual, 13th Edition, states that their 44 Special starting loads are set to maintain at least 11,000 psi, and their Max loads will be within the SAAMI Max limits. It is important, particularly as a beginner that you do not deviate from these published loads, either going lighter than the starting loads, or heavier than the Max loads.

A Colt Single Acton Army in good condition should be fine with Max SAAMI loads, although as a beginner I suggest you start lower than that and work your way up. Bad idea to make Max loads as your first loads. Stay away from any loads labelled Ruger Only. Rugers are more heavily built than a Colt and can take higher pressures than a Colt can. Stay with standard loads, and start down around the starting loads while you are learning what you are doing.

Just glancing at my Speer manual, there are loads for 250 grain cast bullets that max out around 1000 fps. For some reason, the 240 grain loads are going a bit slower, maxing out around 800 fps. There is a practical speed limit here. At some point, a cast bullet moving down a barrel too fast generates enough friction that it starts to soften in the barrel. This causing leading, and you don't want that.

There are many good reloading manuals on the market. Lyman, Hornady, Lee, and Speer, just to name a few. Each of these manuals will have a chapter describing the basic reloading process. Be sure you read this chapter first, and understand what it is telling you before you run out and buy any reloading supplies. This will help prevent making basic errors.

Lastly, be especially wary of loads that you get over the internet or from some guy at your club. Only trust data that you find in recognized published manuals. You can also down load recipes from the major powder manufacturer's websites, like Alliant and Hodgdon. But of course they will only list loads using their powders.

Be aware that there has been a powder shortage going on for a long time now, so it may be difficult to buy a specific powder that you see in a particular recipe. Be prepared to choose alternatives. However, as a beginner, NEVER, deviate from the data you find in published loads. NO SUBSTITUTIONS. If you can't find the specific ingredients listed, choose another load.
 
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Driftwood:

Thanks for your quick response. I have a ton of questions but I will try to restrain myself.

If I understand you correctly, pressure is the critical element when considering the potential for failure.

What is it that actually fails, is it the cylinder or the frame?
OR...is it the cylinder failure which in turn causes the frame to fail?

Here is why I'm asking, the gun frame was heavily pitted and the old engraving needed to be removed, all of this damage was on the lower left side of the frame, below the cylinder. By the time I got through all the pits and gouges on that side of the frame, the Rampant Colt and the date legend was gone from the left side. I went no deeper than the factory roll stamping, but metal was removed.

It would seem to me that if the frame failed, it would occur at the top strap, not in the lower parts of the frame below the cylinder.
There was only minor issues with the top strap over the cylinder, so I'm not concerned about that.

I will be using the new .44 special cylinder (and barrel). Is this cylinder weak link in the maximum 15,500 psi rating?

Here is where you have me a little nervous..."A Colt Single Acton Army in good condition should be fine with Max SAAMI loads, although as a beginner I suggest you start lower than that and work your way up."

What am I working my way up to? I assume you mean up to maximum SAAMI load, but are there issues I need to be on the watch for as I work my way up? You mentioned leading, is there anything else to be aware of?

SAAMI sets the maximum safe pressure for 44 Special at 15,500 psi.
I recall seeing somewhere the .357 was SAAMI rated around 35,000(??)

BSA1 above mentioned that I might consider having the .357 cylinder bored out to the .44 size, if I have the 357 cylinder bored out to the .44 size have I gained anything in the way of added strength?

Thanks for all the info, this is great.
Mike (Redpan)
 
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Elmer Keith was an aficionado of the Colt SAA. He found that it could produce more power and effect with a hot loaded 44 Special load than with the 45 Colt due to the cylinder walls being thicker on the .44.

He was not a fan of the smaller 357.

His work in creating a flat nose semi wadcutter bullet led to that being called a Keith design and the interest in his hot 44 Special load led to the creation of the 44 Magnum.

To do it 'my way' I got a 45 Colt in a Ruger Blackhawk and it handles a stout 45 Colt load very well with a 250 gr Saeco semi wadcutter that has a very wide flat nose. This flat nose and bullet is very impressive on a number of porcupines I shot with it up close.
 
Howdy Again

The pressure vessel in any revolver is the cylinder. It is the cylinder that contains the pressure when the cartridge fires. The frame merely supports the cylinder. The frame does have to put up with the pounding generated by recoil as the cartridge is shoved back against the frame, and with a heavy recoiling revolver the frame has to put up with the vibration caused by heavy recoil. You often read about the early S&W 44 Magnums that had problems with the frame because of the pounding of the heavy recoil. You might even read about frames stretching under heavy recoil. All of this is true, but it is the chambers of the cylinder that have to contain the actual pressure generated when a cartridge fires.

Here is a photo of an antique Merwin Hulbert revolver that blew up when it fired a cartridge too powerful for the old steel of the cylinder to contain. You can see the top strap is missing. When the cylinder ruptured, the gasses and fragments of steel hit the top strap and broke it off the frame.

blownupmerwin_zps8337ec48.jpg



Here is the cylinder. You can see what actually happened. The thinnest cross section of the cylinder is the section of steel under the cylinder locking slot. That is the point where the rupture started. Many shooters believe cylinders rupture first at the thinnest section of the walls between adjacent chambers. But what usually happens is the steel lets go first right at the locking notch. Then the rupture propagates for the length of the cylinder. In this case, the entire top half of the chamber lifted off, and as it flew upwards it hit the top strap and tore it off the frame.

blownmerwinhulbertcylinder01_zpse057ebd4.jpg



You can also see the two adjacent chambers were pinched right at their locking notches, deforming them too.

blownmerwinhulbertcylinder02_zpsd6b45aad.jpg



In more severe situations the walls separating the adjacent chambers will also rupture and half of the cylinder will lift off, leaving three chambers ruptured.

In your case, as long as the guy boring the chambers out for the new cartridge does it correctly, and keeps everything lined up perfectly, opening up the chambers to 44 Special should be no problem. If he screws up and does not do it properly, all bets are off.

Here are two more photos that should help explain things. The cylinder on the left is from a Colt SAA chambered for 45 Colt. The one on the right is chambered for 44 Special. Both cylinders have the same outside diameter. But notice how much more steel surrounds the chambers in the 44 than the 45. I suspect that is why the SAAMI standard for Max pressure with the 44 Special is a little bit higher than the Max pressure for 45 Colt. Bore bigger holes and you leave less 'meat' surrounding the chamber.

twocylinders03_zps0a154011.jpg

twocylinders_zps019546d1.jpg



There are other things involved in the strength of a cylinder than just the amount of metal. Most modern cylinders are heat treated for strength, and have been for many years. The cylinders of old revolvers were not heat treated, so that enters into the equation too.


SAAMI sets the maximum safe pressure for 44 Special at 15,500 psi.
I recall seeing somewhere the .357 was SAAMI rated around 35,000(??)

BSA1 above mentioned that I might consider having the .357 cylinder bored out to the .44 size, if I have the 357 cylinder bored out to the .44 size have I gained anything in the way of added strength?

Yes, the operating pressure of 357 Mag is much higher than 44 Special or 45 Colt. Look at it this way. All cylinders made of modern steels start out with pretty much the same inherent strength. It has to do with the tensile strength of the steel itself. By keeping the holes smaller, you remove less ability for the cylinder to withstand high pressure. The other thing is, SAMMI Max pressure specs for cartridges like the 44 Special and 45 Colt are purposely kept on the low side because there are still a lot of old guns out there that are not made of modern steel, and might not be able to stand up to higher pressures.

This photo may help further explain things. Left to right the cylinders are an Uberti Cattleman, ruger 'old model' Vaquero, and 2nd Generation Colt. All are chambered for 45 Colt. Notice how much more metal there is surrounding the chambers in Ruger cylinder than the other two. The Ruger cylinder is slightly larger in diameter, and the chambers are spaced slightly farther apart. That is the reason for the so called "Ruger Only" loads you will find in some reloading manuals, and it is the reason why you don't try them in a Colt or Colt Clone.


cylinders_01.jpg

****************************

Regarding your frame: did you take any measurements before and after removing metal? Do you know exactly how much metal you removed? The reason I ask is Colt SAA frames are Case Hardened. They are not heat treated all the way through like for instance a Ruger frame is. That is the reason for the beautiful colors on a SAA frame. But Case Hardening is a surface treatment, it infuses extra carbon into the outer surface (case) of the frame, creating a hardened layer on the outside. This hardened layer only extends a few thousandths into the steel, underneath the steel is more ductile. No, it should not affect the overall strength of the frame, remember the frame only supports the cylinder. But you will probably notice if you go to engrave the frame that the surface will be softer on the side where you removed metal than it will be on the other side.

Regarding Max loads: I am not suggesting you approach Max loads. I NEVER approach Max loads when I reload cartridges, I always stay comfortably in the middle ground between min and Max loads. Too much chance that a little bit of inaccuracy with the powder measure might kick the load over beyond the Max load, and besides, with Max loads you get Max recoil and I don't like that. I only mentioned it because you asked about 1000 and 1200 fps loads. Those are going to be Max loads. With some cartridges and powders, best accuracy is obtained up at the Max load level. I strongly suggest you stay down at the starting level and middle when you start reloading. Very few reloaders have pressure taking equipment available to them, you have to learn to look for the signs of overpressure on the cartridges. That's why you are going to buy a really good manual that talks about that kind of thing.

Here is what a good, experienced reloader will do when he starts to reload for a new cartridge/gun. First, reading the available data he will make some educated guesses about what type and weight of bullet he wants to load and what powder to use. Then he will load up some cartridges starting at the lowest level in a few increments of maybe .5 grains. Maybe ten loads at the minimum level, then another ten at min + .5 grains, and so on. Then he goes to the range and sees what load performs the best, either in accuracy or penetration or what ever he is looking for. Then he will go back to the bench and further refine his loads, until he arrives at the load he is most satisfied with. A poor reloader will look up the data, load up a box of Max loads, and take them to the range and blast away with them. Reloading is a whole hobby in itself. It is done for a variety of reasons.

One more thing about reloading. You don't save any money reloading. You just shoot a whole lot more for the same amount of money over buying factory cartridges.
 
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