caliber selection for Colt Single Action Army

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Regarding your search for reloading information, you would do well to start here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238214 This is a classic and is so well written, it is part of THR's reloading forum in "sticky" form. For additional info after reading Dave's advice for beginners, dig deep into THR's library of reloading wisdom: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=649184

I, too, am a fan of the .44 Special. My 2nd Generation Colt SAA in .44 Special is a 7-1/2" barreled gun with replacement over sized wood grips. Unfortunately, my brother shoots it better than I do and he is constantly pestering me to sell it to him. Maybe someday..... ;)

Good luck on your quest!
 
If your 2nd, gen Colt frame is not modified as Driftwood noted?

Your gun is perfectly safe with more then current SAAMI pressure limits.

In modern times, 50 years ago, the .44 Special gained a resurgence in popularity, due to the writings of a man called Skeeter Skelton.
He single handily forced Colt to start making the SAA in .44 Spl again!

He wrote for Shooting Times back then, when magazines were our only source of information.

The Classic 'Skeeter Load' of a 240 grain LSWC over 7.5 grains Unique powder is perfectly safe in any modern 'smokeless powder' Colt.
Depending on barrel length it will run 800 to 900+ FPS.

And it will kill anything that crawls or walks in the lower 48 states.
And probably the other two states too!

rc
 
RC is right, your Colt chambered in .44 Special will have more than enough margin for error for handloading. But that doesn't mean you can or need to run it up to max-plus loads.

A couple of years ago I picked up a NM Blackhawk .44 Special, then a couple of Uberti SA's, then a couple more Uberti's, then a Colt SA, then a Charter Arms, then a S&W 24...all in .44 Special. By keeping track of the number of cartons of LP primers I used, I once had a pretty good idea of how many .44 Special handloads I'd loaded and fired. I have since lost exact track but know for sure I've loaded and fired close to 5,000 through various .44 Specials. I said all that to say this: a couple of powders really stand out as always working in the assembly of accurate loads; Alliant Bullseye and Unique, with the latter being the most versatile.

Last year I hunted with one of the Uberti SA's using a load that propelled a home-cast 260 gr. SWC around 935 fps. Experienced complete broadside penetration on deer proving to me that 1200 fps loads, although they're capable with the .44 Special simply aren't necessary.

Regarding equipment, I always suggest folks start out with good used equipment such as RCBS, Hornady, Pacific, Lyman etc. Single stage presses by said manufacturers will last an eternity. In fact I'm still using the RCBS press my father bought in the late '60's.

when the time comes for you to reload, back issues of Handloader magazine have an incredible wealth of information on the .44 Special. Here is a very good article on the .44 Special that has different levels of loads as well as which revolver are capable of handling them.

Good luck,

35W
 
Some good posts.

The 44 spl is a great round for the Colts. If you have no need of them, then don't load any, though higher powered loads are quite safe (within reason, though the definition of "reason" being subject of some discussion at times).

Reputable manuals have been mentioned. In past years, higher powered 44 spl loads were considered entirely safe in Colt SAA's and large frame Smith & Wessons, even though they were above saami levels. Those two type guns were the only guns made for the cartridge at the time. I have two manuals, one a Lyman/Ideal, and the other, an NRA published manual from the late 50's that have heavier loads and pressure data in both manuals. If you ever want copies of those pages, I'll photograph them and email.

You can get your frame re-color case hardened after engraving. You may be able to get the correct factory marks put back on the left side.
 
I've always thought, for power beyond the .45 Colt loads the SAA is capable of, the .357 was the best choice due to the cylinder thickness. Mr. Johnson's post illustrates my thoughts well. But, it's just MHO. I really think the SAA should be a .45, though. Just keep the loads sane, like 8.3 grains of unique pushing a 255 grain cast flat nose. Ain't much THAT load can't kill around here. It's my light load in my Blackhawk, but would be a heavy load in the SAA.
 
I've always thought, for power beyond the .45 Colt loads the SAA is capable of, the .357 was the best choice due to the cylinder thickness. Mr. Johnson's post illustrates my thoughts well...

In theory, that makes sense. In practice, it requires much more chamber pressure in the 357 to come close to the observed game killing power of larger calibers at lower pressure/velocity.

The 44 spl ended up being a number of peoples choice to split the difference between larger caliber and chamber wall thickness for a useful increase in performance in the Colt SAA's. What many seem to consider insane level loads worked out by Keith and others was in the 19,000-20,000 CUP level (250 gr/1150-1200 fps), while the early 357 factory loads were in the 40,000 CUP or above level, and were shown as a 158 gr @ about 1500 fps from an 8 3/8" barrel. The slightly reduced 44 spl loads in the newer solid head cases that came out in the 50's gave slightly less velocity and slightly more pressure, the increased pressure being in the low-mid-ish 20,000's, but was still deemed quite acceptable by all the relevant authorities (NRA, Lyman etc) on reloading of that day. The 44 spls just chugged along nicely at that velocity/pressure level and gave a very noticeable improvement in power and range from the sedate factory loads that were really nothing more than a smokeless 44 Russian load from the black powder period. I find loads in the 250 gr/850 fps range very nice for most shooting, with getting to about 1000 fps gives noticeably flatter trajectory out in the open (to several hundred yards) and still very pleasant to shoot. The upper end loads I save for carry in bear country.

BTW, shooting black in the 44 spl is an absolute blast! I used to shoot black in my 4 3/4 nickel 44 spl. The echo of the report was very different than smokeless loads. The smokeless loads were a flat crack, at any level, compared to the deep booming report of the black loads, that seemed to have a rolling echo off the surrounding hills. The load level isn't that great compared to what can be gotten into a 45 Colt case, but is enough to shoot small game and have a ton of fun. With smokeless, the 44 spl case is a bit more practical and efficient unless looking for absolute top end, Ruger level loads. I've had flaky ignition in the 45 Colt with light-ish powder charges and lighter bullets. The 45 Colt case is best with the standard weight bullets and a charge that doesn't leave a lot of air space. Shooting a couple hundred yards, there was a noticeable difference in elevation consistency when I used such loads.

When attempting to duplicate the loads from "back in the day", keep in mind that both Unique and 2400 have changed somewhat since then, and loads should be worked up with a chronograph, not just taken as grain for grain loads from older sources. They may be just fine, but they are likely producing a little more pressure/velocity than the old loads did. Unique is fine for the medium range of loads, the top end Keith type loads should be with 2400 or H-110, though I have no data for H-110. I'm still using "old" Unique and 2400, so haven't had to convert loads to the modern versions of those powders.
 
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BTW, shooting black in the 44 spl is an absolute blast! I used to shoot black in my 4 3/4 nickel 44 spl. The echo of the report was very different than smokeless loads. The smokeless loads were a flat crack, at any level, compared to the deep booming report of the black loads, that seemed to have a rolling echo off the surrounding hills. The load level isn't that great compared to what can be gotten into a 45 colt case, but is enough to shoot small game and have a ton of fun.

Ditto that with 45 Colt except more so.
 
In theory, that makes sense. In practice, it requires much more chamber pressure in the 357 to come close to the observed game killing power of larger calibers at lower pressure/velocity.

Yeah, well, I see your point. i do like .357 as a caliber, though, but it does work at higher pressures. The OLD SAAMI pressures were 46,000 CUP that the Colts were set up for. That's rather up there, but it works for me. I still load my old standby loads, didn't down grade to 35,000 psi just because the SAAMI got skirt. My hunting revolvers in .357 and .45 Colt are Ruger Blackhawks. I don't try to push an old Colt to do things it was never intended to do. I need to get a SAA clone, but just for shooting and my collection. I have great fun shooting my .45 Blackhawk and my cap and ball guns are great fun with black powder, too. I have an 1858 Remmy clone and a Ruger Old Army among others to play with using black. I rather like that '58, shoot it a lot, both with the cap and ball cylinders and with a Howell conversion in .45ACP I bought for it. I have yet to try loading .45ACP with black, lacks a bit of capacity I'd think, not sure it'd hold 30 grains. Might try that one some day, but really, the whole reason for the conversion was so if I was too lazy to give the gun a bath after the shoot. :D
 
I much prefer the .44Spl over the .357M in any kind of revolver. IMO, the Colts are not as strong as Rugers, but they are plenty strong enough for those not looking for the most pressure they can get buy with. The 44 can be safely loaded to be more than factory .357 ammo. The .44Spl is the way to go.

Many gun writers compare the 44's effectiveness to that of the 45acp. I suppose that might have merit if considering standard pressure ammo, but the 44 becomes so much more than the acp when reasonable reloading is applied. Plus, there are some very good hunting loads available from companies like DoubleTap that won't harm your gun. My personal favorite is their 180grn. jhp loads that do 1150fps out of a 5.5 inch barrel. I think maybe their are some 185 grain jhp's in 45acp that will do that, so therein is a definite similarity to the two calibers.
 
I have yet to try loading .45ACP with black, lacks a bit of capacity I'd think, not sure it'd hold 30 grains....

I've seen a couple videos of people loading black in 45 auto in a 1911 and a Glock. They worked fine for the limited amount of shooting like a box or two of rounds at a time. It looks like a hoot!

No idea how much black can be gotten into the 45 auto. I used about 28 grs of 3-f in the 44 spl with the Lyman 429421 bullet. That's about all I could get in, and before I knew about how much compression was good. It may be possible to get 30 grs in with the Lyman bullet. Likely less with the 45 auto, but have never tried it.

The 357 is a nice round in the Colts. I shot one that was tuned for a lady in Az for Cowboy shooting. It was a bit heavier than the larger calibers, but was very nice to shoot. She had extra ammo and let me run a box through it after the shoot. If I could afford one, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to have a 357 in a Colt, after replacing the 44 spl I traded off years ago.
 
As far as converting the .357 to a .45...I already have everything for the .44 special so those are my choices, 357 or 44 special.

With all the great input I have received here, I have decided to go with the .44

The deal I got when I acquired the .44 hardware was:
one (1) nearly new .44 cylinder...
two (2) nearly new .44 barrels...
One barrel is 5 1/2 " the other is 7 1/2 "

I don't want to start a fire storm but I'm reading in some places that the bullet velocity actually begins to drop off after the first 4 or 5 inches of barrel length in the .44...Anybody have any input on that?

I was going to use the longer 7 1/2" barrel just because I like the way it looks better than the 5 1/2" . And I figured the longer the barrel the greater the potential velocity.

I understand that the powder can be "all burned up" by the time the bullet reaches the end of the 5 inches of travel and any longer of a barrel is only frictional drag on the bullet which drops the 'FPS'.
I ran into that issue when I built my first AR-10.... 18 to 20 inches is about all you need in the AR, after that there is very little increase in velocity.

I was hoping to shoot in the range of 950 to 1150 fps and I figured the longer barrel would be helping not hindering.

I just finished the article referred by WC Whelen. Great article thank you.

Last of all...bullets, why is the popular choice a 'cast bullet'?
Wouldn't you avoid all issues of 'leading' if a jacketed bullet was used?

Why the wad cutter style, isn't a round nose or even a hollow point more efficient?

Still learning...
Mike (Redpan)
 
I know folks love the .45Colt (and for good reason) but in a Colt-sized sixgun the .44Spl has it all over the grand old forty five and the .357 is a distant third (fourth or fifth). The .45Colt is a grand cartridge and I dearly love it (just setup a new Dillon 650 to load it) but I really think that a lot of its fans just really like that big ole case and its history, without much regard for what it actually does. They also seem to forget all the issues with chamber dimensions that plague the .45 but elude the .44's. The .44Spl accomplishes the same feats with less powder or outperforms it with a greater margin of safety.

Any factory Colt SAA .44Spl would be safe for the 950fps Skeeter load. This fully equals the original blackpowder .45Colt load.

Any 2nd or 3rd generation Colt SAA .44Spl would be safe for the 1200fps Keith load. This is a good bit more than you can get out of the .45 and the .357 is left choking on dust. Forget energy and velocity, the big bores don't need either to get the job done, without making your ears bleed.

Even the .38-40 out of a modern Colt is yielding 1200fps with a 180gr. True big bore performance at way less pressure and noise than the .357Mag.
 
I don't want to start a fire storm but I'm reading in some places that the bullet velocity actually begins to drop off after the first 4 or 5 inches of barrel length in the .44...Anybody have any input on that?
Yes, it's pure nonsense. Even using a faster powder like Unique, these cartridges will show increases in velocity all the way to 18-20". My 1100fps sixgun loads run 1450fps out of a rifle.


Last of all...bullets, why is the popular choice a 'cast bullet'?
Because cast bullets work very well, while costing much less. There is also a little romanticism involved in using these old cartridges with the bullets they were designed for. Jacketed bullets must expand as they were designed to perform. A cast bullet works every time with boring regularity.


Wouldn't you avoid all issues of 'leading' if a jacketed bullet was used?
That's one way to avoid leading and an expensive one. You can also avoid leading by matching your bullet and its hardness to your firearm and application. Which is usually easier than it sounds. I've been using cast bullets almost exclusively as long as I can remember and don't remember the last time I had to scrub lead out of a bore.


Why the wad cutter style, isn't a round nose or even a hollow point more efficient?
Keith discovered 80yrs ago that a good hardcast semi-wadcutter worked much more effectively on game than any other cast design. The flat nose produces impressive wound channels but they also penetrate very well. They are also more reliable than jacketed bullets. An improvement on this concept is the LBT design, with wide a meplat (the flat nose) which produces wound channels rivaling the best jacketed bullets with the penetration of a roundnose. Although these bullets tend to be more expensive than your average semi-wadcutter.
 
You could possibly have the .357 cylinder rechambered for .44-40.
Then you could enjoy two cartridges from the same revolver.
Just a thought.
 
I think the classiest length in the Colts is the 7 1/2". The shorter ones are simply easier to carry. If you aren't carrying it much, there isn't much reason to choose the shorter guns other than personal preference. I've carried up to the 12" Buntline Colts. Its doable, just not as convenient. You cant go wrong either way, you make your choice and work with it.

Sounds like it will be a great project.


RE: the 357 parts, you can keep them for the next project gun, or trade them on things you need. They don't cost much to simply hang on to.

The 44-40 sounds good, but the ammo is awful expensive. They make a lot of sense if one has a carbine in that caliber and handloads.

Redpan, if you can lay hands on a copy of Elmer Keiths book "Sixguns", you'll see what many have been talking about regarding the uses of the 44 spl, and general pistol use and history. Pretty interesting reading. I wore out my old signed copy and have a new reprint to start wearing out. Some of it may in fact be "dated", but those old guys did some remarkable things.
 
Malamute

Everyone is forwarding references to books, magazine articles, technical articles.
It is a literal snow storm of information and I have saved it all. I have located all the books including Elmer Keith's book "Sixguns", and it is on my shopping list.
It's going to take me months to get caught up on all the reading but I love it.

Most of the time if I need information I do internet searches, but this is the first time I have ever used a blog site and I am amazed with the response!!!

Thanks,
Mike (Redpan)
 
My personal favorite is their 180grn. jhp loads that do 1150fps out of a 5.5 inch barrel. I think maybe their are some 185 grain jhp's in 45acp that will do that, so therein is a definite similarity to the two calibers.

Well, compare that to 180 grain XTPs from the 6.5" barrel of my .357 Blackhawk, 1400 fps, 785 ft lbs. These are loaded to older SAAMI standards and match Buffalo Bore 180 heavy .357 magnum data. Hmmm.....
 
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