Calibers and loads for high performance in short action rifles

[LoonWulf]

I started typing my post and realized i didnt remember anything besides the basics for the loads ive got for the 6-284 and 6.5CM.I decided I needed to post something so id remember to come back and actually give the correct info after ive got it all checked, since I read this thread last week and forgot.

Ill post the specifics when i get home this weekend, check the loads for the 6-284, and pull the data for my 6.5CM from my notes.

Ive got a blistering load for the .250AI as well, but its also on the final check list for this weekend.

 

[1stmarine]

Let me know if there is an interest in seeing any trajectory, velocity, dope charts, etc... anyone?

 

[Gtscotty]

I'd be interested in seeing the wind drift curves out to say 1k of the different loads plotted together, 15mph, full value. That's where the rubber meets the road for me, drop is just clicks on a turret, and for the most part steel doesn't care about energy.

Edit: On second thought, a separate combined chart with energy curves over range might be interesting for the hunting specific loads. I'm honestly not going to shoot any game past 400 yards with my rifles, where I hunt, wind and the effects of field shooting positions inject too many variables past that, but it might be an interesting graphic anyway.

 

[1stmarine]

I'd be interested in seeing the wind drift curves out to say 1k of the different loads plotted together, 15mph, full value.

I think with 10mph wind. 5mph half that. 15 is 1/12 and of course double for 20mph. Easy to apply w/o much thinking.
If anyone likes mils and metric I can do that. I use a 20km/hr baseline.

 

[1stmarine]

This is an example based on the given test data and current local conditions. Used one of @farmerboy78 's tests.
We can run these with any numbers and also do a more simple vertical dope and wind card and even some comparatives between bullets.
I can run several variants in batch side by side. My software can do that easily from the list so that is not a problem.

Thoughts?

 

[Gtscotty]

Seems like a pretty standard ballistic calculator output. A combined excel connected scatter plot showing the wind deflection of each cartridge in the same plot for easy comparison (less sedate wind values to help visually separate the lines more) would be more interesting to me. But it's your time, and I'm not sure what your end goal is.

 

[1stmarine]

Time is not the issue since from here I can run them in batch and filter, drill down, slice & dice and print/visualize the data very easily.
The biggest job was to collect some test data that people kindly provided.

This data useful to analyze things and get past the paradigm associated with rounds like the alleged 308 win. limitations that we have seen in other threads.

Here we can see what bullets do and some factory ammo does regardless of the casing/s one has. Then is up to everyone to decide based on their needs/goals.
The data is not 100% accurate because it is estimated based on simulation values for atmospherics and will also need adjusted BCs but it gives us a pretty good idea.
We let people decide what to do with the data. Perhaps some will see factory load or bullet / powder combination that they would like to try.

After this I might open a different thread to talk about "killing potential" since terminal characteristics are a complete different subject and also discuss
directives, tests and how to match bullets to game type and weight for hunting and other objectives like military or tactical use.

 

[LoonWulf]

Heres the data for the 6.5CM, obviously these are ONLY applicable to THIS firearm, lot of bullets, and powder. This load is about 3 grains beyond hornadys recommended max. Also the smallest powder increments i work in are .5s. 46.5 showed no abnormal pressure signs but had there been any i would drop to 46.

Rifle: Factory Stock Howa 1500, 22" barrel.
Bullet: Hornady 143 ELDX
Powder: Hodgdon Superformance 46.5gr
Case: Hornady
Primer: CCI LR (Ive also used LRM, and found no differences)
Coal: 2.90 for about .05 off the lands
Velocity: 2810avg

Notes: Loads showed no appreciable pressure sign until 47grs were reached, at which point primers were flattend at the edges and bolt lift took slightly more effort. Primer pockets were fine on the next loading and 46.5grs of powder produced no signs of pressure in these cases.

Couple things on this load. Ive only got velocity data for 46.5gr load no es or sd (and only fired 20rounds of it), i didnt have my magnetospeed with me and i forgot to write down the info from my shooting chrony. Es and sd were pretty low, single digits on the sd if i remember correctly.

I might have a log of the 5 rounds 47grn charges i fired when i was doing the pressure ladder. Those were all shot thru my magspeed.

The powder charges/pressure sign, tracked almost exactly the same as my .250AI firing 115 bergers. Im gonna run a few more of those thru the chrono this afternoon.

Something of interest, for me anyway, is that superformance (or atleast the lots i have) seems to have a VERY sharp initial curve of functionality. With recommend loadings, velocity has been consistently 150-200fps slow in all the cartridges ive tried (messing with mag primers didnt change anything). When velocity was brought up near the "expected", pressure signs were similar to factory fired ammo (where previously primers would sometimes be backed out slightly and show little or no deformation), and consistency would improve dramatically. Advancing beyond this point showed little or no sudden spikes in velocity. Physical signs on the cases and primers were really the only warnings i got with this stuff...just something to watch for those wanting to experiment.

 

[Gtscotty]

Rifle: Factory Stock Howa 1500, 22" barrel.
Bullet: Hornady 143 ELDX
Powder: Hodgdon Superformance 46.5gr
Case: Hornady
Primer: CCI LR (Ive also used LRM, and found no differences)
Coal: 2.90 for about .05 off the lands
Velocity: 2810avg

That's an interesting load, about 0.3gr over Sierra's published max, but you're also running a much longer COAL. Your reported velocity is in line with Sierra's book velocity.

I guess I forgot to post my COALs initially, here they are

RPR 6.5 CM
140gr CC: 2.78"

Kimber 6.5 CM
140gr AB: 2.76"
143gr ELDx: 2.8"
127gr LRX: 2.805"

CTR .308
168gr CC: 2.86"
178gr ELDx: 2.895"

This data useful to analyze things and get past the paradigm associated with rounds like the alleged 308 win. limitations that we have seen in other threads.

I'm sure most of us that have played with a few of the different cartridges mentioned have a good idea of how the .308 and others stack up, but I do think that a wind chart like what I mentioned would certainly help visualize the differences.

 

[1stmarine]

Thanks guys for taking the time to update the nrs.

Hornady's manuals like everyone else are all over the place. Lyman I think is the worse
with pretty frequent errors. It looks like they are written by lawyers.
I think the Hornady is a good starting point but then also look at the tested powders from the bullets manufacturers for every single bullet.

Pretty nice the ELDX. do you recall the temperature at the time?

 

[1stmarine]

I'm sure most of us that have played with a few of the different cartridges mentioned have a good idea of how the .308 and others stack up, but I do think that a wind chart like what I mentioned would certainly help visualize the differences.

The dope and wind charts will always be there. I also have a printing version to print a card.
I add the speed and momentum that are important for hunters and tactical jobs.
I can run up to 20 loads in parallel but it gets a bit cumbersome. Let me run one example with five loads and see how it looks.

 

[1stmarine]

All updates are in....



**Needless to say reload at your own discretion.
barrels, chamber versions, brass, powder batches and atmospherics affect the pressure and performance.
This is just for broad orientation and discussion and if you reload please check and double checkwith reloading and manufacturing data.
Also let me know if I made any mistakes when copying some of the load info you provided or you see anything
out of the ordinary that could be a typo/mistake.***
.

 

[LoonWulf]

That's an interesting load, about 0.3gr over Sierra's published max, but you're also running a much longer COAL. Your reported velocity is in line with Sierra's book velocity.

Thats good to know, Ive only got the Hornady manual, tho i do use Hodgdons site for some stuff.

Heres the Data for the 6-284, and .250AI. As always, these are specific to the components and rifles used, and are what i consider MAX.

6-284
Rifle: Custom Arisaka T-99, 24" barrel.
Bullet: Pulled 95grn Federal Fusion (I think)
Powder: Hodgdon Retumbo 59gr
Case: Nosler
Primer: CCI LRM
Coal: 2.86 for about .05 off the lands
Velocity: 3350avg



250AI
Rifle: Custom Savage 11, 26" barrel.
Bullet: Berger 115
Powder: Hodgdon Superformance 46.5gr
Case: Hornady
Primer: CCI LR
Coal: 2.68 for about .02 off the lands
Velocity: 3100avg

all data is from the same location, elevation is about 4kft, and temps are usually in the mid 70s. I dont have specific data on temperature as i dont have a therm, only what my buddies truck usually displays when we are up there.

And thanks for compiling the data and making it so nice to read 1stmarine, ive already used it as a reference a couple times!

 

[Gtscotty]

Thats good to know, Ive only got the Hornady manual, tho i do use Hodgdons site for some stuff.

In case you want to reference their other
loads.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/01/09/sierra-bullets-6-5-creedmoor-load-data/

I have Hornady's 9th and 10th, and I like them ok, I think their loads run a bit light in a few calibers (6.5CM and in some cases .308 Win), and heavy in others (.270 Win).

All in all I find Hodgdon to be the most accurate source for a lot of the rifles I've loaded for, but that's assuming you want to use their powder. Alliant and Accurate online load data is pretty good too.

 

[LoonWulf]

Thanks! i hadnt found that blog entry yet. I always like to have more than one reference (and realy as many as i can get).

 

[Gtscotty]

It looks like Sierra just came out with a 150gr 6.5mm Matchking, 0.713 G1 above ~1800 fps.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/01/09/sierra-bullets-6-5-creedmoor-load-data/

Sierra lists a load for the Creedmoor with Superformance and this bullet at 2,800 fps. If that doesn't qualify as high performance in a short action I don't know what does. Recoil should be like a mild .308 to boot. It only gets better with a 6.5 SAUM or 6.5 WSM, 3k+ with a .713 G1 bullet, pretty awesome.

The only downside is that Sierra recommends a 7.5 twist for this bullet. Some folks that have done stability calcs that suggest it's borderline in an 8 twist. Given that I do most of my shooting at 6k ft, I might give them a try in my 8 twist. On the other hand, lots of folks are shooting the 147gr ELD at ~.697 G1 just fine in 8 twists, might be better to focus my efforts on a known quantity.

 

[1stmarine]

I agree those are pretty nice but they are long. I think with those twists these are geared more towards the 6.5-284, saum and wsm folks to remain somewhat competitive with the 175-185gr 7mm.
they have been also releasing some pretty good 7mm bullets and not just for target but berger and nosler has also some pretty good for hunting up to the task for very large elk and other game.
The 7mm 180gr ELD is advertised at .796 G1 with the 8 twist that at the low 2700's is very good but they also benefits wtih the 7.5 twist for a 0.816 G1. Not sure if they cost a lot more but they
should be pretty good.

I think those new sierras might not stabilize with 8 twist even with high altitude and even if they stabilize it might be too late for optimum results and will affect the BC.
Is not a huge difference so I would stick to the ELDs if you know they work with the 8 twist. I am guessing obviously, hard to say for sure w/o testing.

Just keep in mind the advertised BC of the 147gr ELD is only good for 200-300 yards or so, then it drops to .660 so you mitgh want to dial it with a G7 average and
this way get an accurate correction for the actual BC for your range. Actual BCs can be found here..... https://www.hornady.com/support/ballistic-coefficient

Anyway, I think the ELD is a good little bullet and hornady are not as expensive as other alternatives. I wish noser made a couple of match burners one in 6.5mm
like a 145gr and a 7mm in 168gr or so both in the .65 G1 range. With decent metplats and reduced cost these would become good sellers imo.

 

[Gtscotty]

The 7mm 180gr ELD is advertised at .796 G1 with the 8 twist that at the low 2700's is very good but they also benefits wtih the 7.5 twist for a 0.816 G1. Not sure if they cost a lot more but they
should be pretty good.

What cartridge and load will do that out of a short action? From a bit of research online, that seems to be either the realm of a 7mm WSM, SAUM, or a .284 Win loaded to standard action mag length with a LONG barrel. One nice thing about Sierra's 150gr/6.5CM load is that, at 2.81", it will function out of pretty much any short action, including Win 70's, a personal favorite, but usually stuck with ~2.85" or so if you want to use the factory stock and metal. The WSMs and SAUMs are nice, but again TANSTAAFL, recoil is going to be quite a bit more disruptive with those heavy 180gr loads.

I wish noser made a couple of match burners one in 6.5mm
like a 145gr and a 7mm in 168gr or so both in the .65 G1 range. With decent metplats and reduced cost these would become good sellers imo.

Nosler does make their Custom Competition line of match bullets, the 6.5s are 123gr and 140gr, not sure about the 7mms but they are relatively cheap. Nosler also recently released their RDF match bullet line with much higher BC's. I've got 100 140gr RDFs sitting at home ready to load up and test out, but with hunting season here, I've been sitting out matches and have not done much with them.

 

[1stmarine]

The 7mm/08 will do that with a 25" barrel and R17. Even the smaller 7mm creedomore or 7mmx47 lapua wildcats will do that with the right barrel.
Many people will not have that 2.83" limitation since these loads are not really aimed towards gas guns.

Even w/o going with expensive AW/AX magazines I believe one of the cheapest rifles that is the axis gives 3.2" with their std. magazine.
There are other magazines and short actions that work with even longer COAL but not really needed anyway unless you want a long 284 winchester that
will put that same bullet 100-150fps faster also from a short action.
If I want to do the best I can and still use the short action I am not going to limit myself with the shortest magazines. WSM and SAUM will not do that neither.

Here the 7x47 wildcat and R17 ...
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/7x47-lapua-wildcat-cartridge/

I know about the RDF but I am not sure they have the bulk deals and cost x unit they have on the match burners. ???
It would be awesome if they can get out a good deal on bulk packages even if it is a bit more.

 

[Gtscotty]

The 7mm/08 will do that with a 25" barrel and R17. Even the smaller 7mm creedomore or 7mmx47 lapua wildcats will do that with the right barrel.
Many people will not

That's pretty stout, what charge weight of RL17 does it take to get that velocity in a 7mm-08? RL17 gives great velocities in a number of cartridges, RL16 also does very well, with a bit faster burn and less temp sensitivity (per Alliant). I've burned up 3-4 lbs this year playing with hunting loads in my 6.5s, .30-06 and .270. Great velocities and good accuracy all around, I've got a fresh 8lb jug sitting at home to work up some match loads when I get a chance. I'd actually be interested to see what kind of numbers you've been able to get with 150gr and 160gr bullets in a short barrel (18" - 20") 7mm-08. I have a Ti suppressor inbound and want to put together a elk/deer rifle for next year. Been eyeing cartridges with 7mm and .308 bullets mostly, 350yds and less would be the envelope.

If you don't mind sorting bullets, I got my RDFs as blems for $22/100. Pretty decent price, I would probably use blems for practice and 1st for matches because I'm kind of cheap.

 

[1stmarine]

I don't know how many grains these guys in the article were using but there is no need for a lot of powder. With these powders the shorter cases work better than the long
action + long cases anyway. I mean you get more punch x grain.
I have not developed 180s with the R17 but I would probably start with 43gr and 3.10-.20 coal. that has been working great with R19.
One should be able to get 50 to 100fps more as per the long range hunting forum guys who have been using this load. That should put me in the
low 270's but I not sure I can break 2700fps with the 24". With the 24" R19 gives me 2626 fps avg. from 5 shot string at 60F temp.
I am not too worried about this because I am going to stick to the 168gr berger and ABLR for elk and for now that work so well.
I mean, it is always a time + money investment situation so perhaps next year we will see if we can develop a new one with a 175 or 180g + R17.
In any case the 168gr put more momentum than the 30 caliber ones even larger calibers. Hunter is another good one.
Those are to the 7mm what 2000MR is to the 308 but with less temp. variation.
Also for impossible shots one should not be using anything but a magnum anyway assuming one can hit them that is a different story.
Have you tried N160 with the 6.5 147's? That makes popular loads overseas. Maybe a tad slower for the heaviest not the fastest but very
consistent or so they say.