Calling all Gunsmith's and Tinkerers, Mayday, Mayday -- SiG 226 problem

[orangeninja]

Okay guys, I just got this LNIB Sig 226 .40S&W from CDNN. The gun is in really great shape, seems to have been shot very little and is a real tight fit. Problem is, it FTF almost every single shot.

I went shooting with Hawk this weekend and it FTF consistantly to strip and load the first round or if it did at some point in the magazine it would FTF. I used 165 gr. ammo FMJ I think it was called "Independance" or somthing to that effect. I've used it before with no problem. So then I tried 180 gr. PMC stuff, same results. So that pretty much rules out the ammo.

The magazine is a typical brand new sig mag...spring so strong it hurts your thumb to load, so I doubt it is that. Here is what happens:

1.) Bullet is stripped from mag no problem.

2.) Bullet gets about halfway into the chamber and stops...jammed...nose in but the rest of the case doesn't feed. Tapping the but of the slide really doesn't do much either, it is a tight fit at seemingly the wrong angle.

3.) It is not a double feed. It is not a FTE.

So my question to you guys. What are the elements of a FTF. What causes it? Mags? Recoil Springs?

 

[Seven High]

Did you lubricate the slide rails before shooting it? It sounds to me like the slide is moving too slow.

 

[orangeninja]

The slide was lubed with Rig +P. Slick as snot.

 

[GaryP]

Try a different magazine you just might be surprised at the results!

 

[orangeninja]

Will do....anything else it may be?

 

[kimbernut]

Ftf

Hey,Alduro.I just happened to be passing through.I'd wait on some of the fellows with more experience for their cure ideas.A lot of different factors can play a role in FTF. Sounds like your mag is doing its job but could be a little too slow which could be spring related.The cartridge has to glide up the breechface and underneath the extractor which it does not seem to be doing-could be the breechface needs polishing or the extractor could be preventing the cartridge rim from coming completely up to it's proper spot under the extractor.On the other end the feed ramp and throat seem to be doing their jobs but if you haven't already I would carefully clean and polish those areas. The chamber alone could possibly be the problem-needing cleaning and/or polishing. These are the only things I know to check-it's much easier with the pistol in hand.As I said my experience is limited but I'm sure one of the gurus (and I say that with the utmost respect)will be around shortly.

Edit: You may find a solution quicker in the gunsmithing forum.

 

[Chuck Dye]

Do I understand correctly? The cartridge is driven far enough forward for the rim to clear the magazine lips but bridges with the bullet in contact with the "roof" of the chamber and the "belly" of the case against the bottom of the chamber mouth? That suggests either non-spec ammo, which you seem to have eliminated as a cause, or a non-spec magazine releasing the cartridge too late in the cycle. Are you sure the magazine is for the .40S&W? Does the jam occur in all the magazines you have?

 

[Chipperman]

If you manually try to push a round into the chamber, does it slide right in easily?
If not, then it's either really dirty, or you're trying to load .40 into a 9mm pistol (just kidding).

If you can manually slide the rounds in easily, then something else is amiss.

If you have access to another mag, try that first.
If not, then load up the mag and leave it for a few days. That may compress the spring enough to take some force off the feed lips. If there is too much force from the mag spring, the slide uses up most of its momentum just trying to strip the round from the mag.

 

[Old Fuff]

Pure speculation, but be sure the cartridge is coming up as it should under the extractor. Also carefully examine the chamber. If all else fails remove the recoil spring assembly and hand-cycle the slide while stripping rounds out of the magazine. As you go you should be able to feel what is binding and where. It may be that dirt/fouling is packed around the extractor spring.

When doing this, either use dummy rounds, or first remove the mainspring. Obviously keep your finger off of the trigger and out of the trigger guard.

 

[orangeninja]

Thanks a heap guys. I bought a brand new factory mag today and will try that. The rounds do catch clear of the magazine but the belly of the round is 1/2 in and out. Tapping the rear of the slide does not put it into place due to the angle. Could quite be the mags...so I will eliminate that as a possibility ASAP.

 

[PCRCCW]

How is the slide movement without a mag in place...does it move free and easily the whole way both ways? Does the barrel drop down when the slide is back?
No barrel feed ramp should be 'off that much", to not feed ammo 1/2 way and stop it.
My guess is the gun is either completely non functioning....like the lockup is in the wrong place or you have completely buggered ammo.
If it was spring related a gentle tap on the back of the slide would send the slide/ammo home........or should.
Is the recoil spring assy installed correctly???????????? My guess would be ammo.....get some other stuff.........FMJ's to test this one...no Truncated Cone or JHP's......plain FMJ's and see what it does.
Shoot well..........

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Boorow, I'll give you $75. for the worthless thing if you'll throw in a 357sig barrel and you can keep the .40 barrel.

A couple of additional points not (yet) mentioned- New factory SIG mag, fresh out of the wrapper, stiff spring, .40 slowandwimpy..got enough bear snot on it to make it work...right ammo, different brands of same and still FTF...tried any 155grains? ...everything sounds ok so far; double-check the mag release cutout against a known-good mag (I know you've got one laying around) and make sure the mag is seating properly upon insertion into the frame.

Maybe the slot is cut funny. Maybe it won't let it seat high enough to strip off the round.

Sometimes my flashcard thinking works, sometimes it doesn't. Also, check the guide rod for any binding..without the magazine, just so I'll feel warm and fuzzy. Could it possibly be the wrong guide rod mixed in there? All those SIG parts on one table...parts iz parts.

See ya around.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[Hawk]

I was there - it looked to be what the 1911 folks call a "classic 3 pointer". The offending party is sitting in my safe now. ::sound of dial twirlling::

How is the slide movement without a mag in place...does it move free and easily the whole way both ways?

Yup.

got enough bear snot on it to make it work

Slicker'n snail snot. Range 'smith de-snotted the chamber in case we were over-lubed. T'wasn't the case.

check the guide rod for any binding

No bind.

I don't do .40S&W - nothing on hand to check chamber. But this didn't look to be a problem and the 3 pointer derailed the festivities before the case could be much of an issue.

Boorow wasn't riding the slide, but range 'smith, I think, took it a step further and was "snapping" the slide back till it stopped. I didn't think much of difference at the time, but he managed to put 5 rounds downrange while we couldn't get one to chamber. Maybe the mag is holding onto the rounds a little too enthusiastically. Nothing is noticible with the mag in empty.

 

[orangeninja]

Gonna have to try that new mag. Will be done tomorrow at high noon. Pray for me....or the gun in this case.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Moving this thread.

kimbernut very properly suggested:

You may find a solution quicker in the gunsmithing forum.

True, especially since alduro himself appealed to gunsmiths. I should have caught this one earlier. Oh well- - -

Moving thread, leaving re-direct in Autoloaders.

Johnny

 

[DnPRK]

I'd bet that Kimbernut and Old Fuff are correct - it's the inability of the cartridge case to slide up the breechface (under the extractor) that's causing the failure to feed.

 

[mete]

If you take out the barrel , you should be able to drop a round into the chamber without any binding. I would look at the extractor next .Take it out ,clean extractor ,spring and hole ,remove any burrs.Next inspect chamber, breech face and any other surface the round contacts , for burrs, remove if found. A burr of even .002" is enough to cause feeding failures !!!

 

[Hawk]

"Adjacent lane kibbitzer" checking in:

New mag didn't help. Extractor does seem "rough" when trying to manually slide a case up the breechface. The extractor spring didn't seem overly strong. Breechface seemed smooth.

I'm sure Alduro will be along shortly with a better post-mortem.

 

[orangeninja]

Okay guys here are my observations. I believe the extractor is the culprit. The rounds seem to get stuck just under the extractor right before going all the way into the chamber.

I can drop a bullet smoothly into the chamber of the barrel no problems whatsoever. The recoil spring is good. Real good. The magazines, both of them were brand new and free of debris. The chamber was clear of obstructions. The extractor does seem a little rough, but the breech face is very smooth and even. The gun failed to feed exactly 34 times out of 150 rounds fired.

The rounds that it has failed on were as follows:

Independence 165 gr. FMJ

PMC 180 gr. FMJ

Today was:

100 rounds of Winchester White Box 155 gr. 31 failed to feed

50 rounds Remington 180 gr. FMJ 3 failed to feed (this was some very HOT ammo)

Releasing the slide using the slide lock will FTF, pulling the slide back and slingshotting forward will FTF. Violently pulling the slide back will feed (sometimes). It will also FTF during shooting. Less so on hot ammo.

Every FTF was identical to the next regardless to ammo. Bullet, stuck partially under the extractor, about halfway chambered.

So...what do you guys think I should do? The clock is ticking!

Forgot to add, this gun is just like new....I don't think I'll get one this nice cosmetically from CDNN again. Even the slide rails look new. My guess is that is not been fired much at all....obviously. So I'd really like to keep the gun, but I have to have it reliable.

 

[Old Fuff]

Remove and clean the extractor, pin, and the spring, as well as their respective slots or holes. Inspect the spring for any signs of damage, and then lubricate and reassemble.

 

[orangeninja]

I left it with a smith who will take a look at it. Anything beyond field stripping a Sig is beyond me....I'm not a tinkerer or a smith.....which is why I carry Sig.

Maybe I should rethink myself.

 

[Hawk]

Maybe I should rethink myself.

Nah. Just a reminder that all things mechanical...

So long as the 'smith has it, I'd like to revise my bet to "sharp edge on extractor, notch distance from breechface OK". Let us know how it goes.

 

[4v50 Gary]

What type of FMJ? Are they round nose FMJ or otherwise? If not RN FMJ, then try some for the break-in period.

 

[orangeninja]

Gary,

All kinds, round nose 165 gr. 180 semi-flat front Remington, which did the best. I'm still thinking extractor.

 

[Hawk]

Here's some spiffy ascii art on where to break a sharp edge on a 1911 extractor.

http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_extractor_tension.html

As to whether that should even be attempted on a SIG extractor, I am bereft of clue.