Calling those with access to 3 Savage guns: 110BA, 220, & 212

[Matt304]

I'm in dire need of some help from anyone owning a Savage 110BA, and who also has access to either a Savage 220 or 212 slug gun.

I'm starting a new project, and based on the cartridge requirements, the 220 or 212 is actually the more suitable action for me to use. However, I need to get them to work in a 110BA stock chassis system.

Can anyone with access to these 3 actions possibly elaborate on what kind of work would be needed to get either of the two bolt action shotgun actions to work in the 110 BA chassis system? I assume it can be done, but I need some further reassurance, please.

Thank you very much, anyone willing to help me find my answers, I would be willing to treat you with some free ammo for your time! Thanks again.

Matt

 

[gotboostvr]

With enough time and money, anything is possible.

Savage is more helpful than most manufacturers, they'll let you know wether it's a simple swap or not and sell you the parts.

If it's not simple (I don't suspect it will be) they'll at least seek you the factory parts you may need to modify yourself.

You can probably make it work as a single shot without an asinine amount of work.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I have a 110 bat in 338 with the big metal abomination of a stock. And a 12 fv But no 220 or 212

 

[rbernie]

Interesting question. To start with - bookmark this page for future reference:

https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?128-Savage-Action-Lengths

According to Savage, the 212 / 220 use the 110 action:

https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57382

Originally only offered through the Savage® Special Order Office, the Model 212 bolt-action turkey shotguns is now available everywhere. It's built around the Model 110 rifle action, which is machined from steel bar stock and secured three-dimensionally along its entire length by the AccuStock™ internal chassis.

So the action screw spacing should work out OK between the 110 LA and 212/220, but sadly that's not the end of the story - you also gotta consider the magazine / magwell, since the 20gw/12ga magazine width requirements are considerably greater than any centerfire chambering. I went and measured one of my MDT LSS Savage chassis (which uses AICS mags, BTW), and the magwell is ~ .95" across. There is no way to get an AICS compatible magazine that will support 12ga and that will also fit in that magwell.

The only way that I can see this working for you is if you either go single shot (and find a way to block the bottom of the action) or you can find an AICS magazine that you're willing to hack on to get it to feed something like a 20ga shell.

 

[Matt304]

Interesting question. To start with - bookmark this page for future reference:

https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?128-Savage-Action-Lengths

According to Savage, the 212 / 220 use the 110 action:

https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57382



So the action screw spacing should work out OK between the 110 LA and 212/220, but sadly that's not the end of the story - you also gotta consider the magazine / magwell, since the 20gw/12ga magazine width requirements are considerably greater than any centerfire chambering. I went and measured one of my MDT LSS Savage chassis (which uses AICS mags, BTW), and the magwell is ~ .95" across. There is no way to get an AICS compatible magazine that will support 12ga and that will also fit in that magwell.

The only way that I can see this working for you is if you either go single shot (and find a way to block the bottom of the action) or you can find an AICS magazine that you're willing to hack on to get it to feed something like a 20ga shell.

You are awesome! Thanks for inputting so much info into your post. Thanks to the others as well, gotboostvr, for the info on Savage being helpful. I wasn't so sure they would be with the amount of business they probably have to deal with in these times.

Rbernie,

It's interesting you found that info saying they are built on the 110 action. I have to dig now, but I found a post on Savage Shooters I believe I bookmarked that actually showed the 220 action screw spacing bolting to the stock being different than a 110. IIRC, the cutout (receiver stock plate) was the same size as a short-action, but had the bolt spacing in between the two--further apart than the short action, but not quite as far apart as the long action 110. I *think* this is how it went, let me dig it up in a bit and I'll post back the photo once I find it.

And guys, I'm not actually using 20/12ga... It's an awkward wildcat based on the 505 Gibbs (408 CT) case, but rebated rim the size of 338 Lapua. At least, at this point, it appears that's how we will be doing it if we have to use the 110 BA. If we can use the 220 or even 212, we will mod the bolt face to accept the 505 Gibbs rim--cheaper than using a 110BA--but we want the ability to use the 110 chassis systems, however we do it. It's a round we believe we will call the 30 Stomper, little beast of a cartridge made to be short and fat to be legal in a given state for hunting. The details won't make sense at this point, but we figured out how to get it Illinois legal using a Sig Brace as a pistol, for whitetail. It's a pistol closing in on a rifle, minus a stock for a Sig Brace, with 300WM ballistics.

 

[rbernie]

It's an awkward wildcat based on the 505 Gibbs (408 CT) case, but rebated rim the size of 338 Lapua. At least, at this point, it appears that's how we will be doing it if we have to use the 110 BA.

Why not just use a Savage 110 action and have PTG make you a bolt head?

https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/9715-precision-machined-savage-bolt-heads.html

If one of their standard bolt faces does not work for you, they will do a custom bolt face for a very modest amount of money

 

[Mn Fats]

... It's an awkward wildcat based on the 505 Gibbs (408 CT) case, but rebated rim the size of 338 Lapua.

I'd love to see a pic of this.

Btw where is @LoonWulf? He's usually on top of this type of thing

 

[GooseGestapo]

FWIW, My Savage M220 seems to be on the Axis action. However, internal machining is specific to the 20ga case head. The guide rails specifically.
Another difference is the magazine and trigger guard assembly.
I’m actually fond of the factory stock.

 

[gotboostvr]

I had a hunch it was for some state-specific hunting regs work-around.

I was considering a fast twist 45-70 running 200gr saboted 358 cal bullets for long range hunting in Ohio. I figured it was just easier to move out west if I wanted to hunt with a flat shooting cartridge.

 

[LoonWulf]

I'd love to see a pic of this.

Btw where is @LoonWulf? He's usually on top of this type of thing

Hes been busy tearing down his algae system at work lol about all ive had energy for lately is complaining

FWIW, My Savage M220 seems to be on the Axis action. However, internal machining is specific to the 20ga case head. The guide rails specifically.
Another difference is the magazine and trigger guard assembly.
I’m actually fond of the factory stock.

That LOOKS like a 110 variant, closer to a target action then a standard 110 in shape, tho length i dont know.


Im curious about this project, ive never seen a 220 or 212 in person so cant help a ton.
Im also curious if the savage or other similar size action and lugs are large enough to handle full pressure loads with a case that wide.

 

[horsey300]

You are awesome! Thanks for inputting so much info into your post. Thanks to the others as well, gotboostvr, for the info on Savage being helpful. I wasn't so sure they would be with the amount of business they probably have to deal with in these times.

Rbernie,

It's interesting you found that info saying they are built on the 110 action. I have to dig now, but I found a post on Savage Shooters I believe I bookmarked that actually showed the 220 action screw spacing bolting to the stock being different than a 110. IIRC, the cutout (receiver stock plate) was the same size as a short-action, but had the bolt spacing in between the two--further apart than the short action, but not quite as far apart as the long action 110. I *think* this is how it went, let me dig it up in a bit and I'll post back the photo once I find it.

And guys, I'm not actually using 20/12ga... It's an awkward wildcat based on the 505 Gibbs (408 CT) case, but rebated rim the size of 338 Lapua. At least, at this point, it appears that's how we will be doing it if we have to use the 110 BA. If we can use the 220 or even 212, we will mod the bolt face to accept the 505 Gibbs rim--cheaper than using a 110BA--but we want the ability to use the 110 chassis systems, however we do it. It's a round we believe we will call the 30 Stomper, little beast of a cartridge made to be short and fat to be legal in a given state for hunting. The details won't make sense at this point, but we figured out how to get it Illinois legal using a Sig Brace as a pistol, for whitetail. It's a pistol closing in on a rifle, minus a stock for a Sig Brace, with 300WM ballistics.

How married to these specs are you? Cuz I has a thought.....

 

[gotboostvr]

How married to these specs are you? Cuz I has a thought.....

I'm all ears!

 

[LoonWulf]

Cuz I has a thought.....

Safety goggles and crash helmet......ENGAGE!

 

[horsey300]

Well, straight wall + wsm got me to thinking about a cartridge I'd read on awhile back, .510 wsm, it SHOULD work in the savage ba with a magnum bolt face.......
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/472101969/xsl/print_topic
Eta quick summary, take a wsm, author liked the 7 for longer case, chop the shoulders off, stuff a big long heavy pill in there with 30-40 gr of powder, and launch 1000-2200 fps. Lehigh makes a 327 gr pill for the .510 whisper that oughta be a hoot for deer.....
Etaa the 725 lehigh subsonic could be even more fun.....
From here on just gonna keep adding projectiles to the list:
Cutting edge 350 gr raptor.
Heck for the price of admission, I'd even give these a try: https://www.alcobullets.com/shop/ai...n-510-swagged-lead-fb-hp-350-grain-box-of-50/
Then there's the beautiful myriad of hawk bullets!
Of course, the amax is available too, and for larger game, Hornady and Barnes have options if none of the above sources trip your trigger...

 

[WisBorn]

Safety goggles and crash helmet......ENGAGE!

At least you didn't say hold my beer

 

[horsey300]

At least you didn't say hold my beer

Careful, we'll be in enough trouble if @LoonWulf lets his wife get wind of what we're up to around here, " another WHAT project!?"

 

[LoonWulf]

And repeat after me...
"Its not my fault! Horsey made me do it!"

Nother project to start tinkering with........hrrrrrmmmm research time.

 

[horsey300]

And repeat after me...
"Its not my fault! Horsey made me do it!"

Nother project to start tinkering with........hrrrrrmmmm research time.

Looking forward to results, I think that this type of wildcat+something like one of the lehighs might actually give you a fighting chance against the chickens! And subsonic lr goats (more than 1 cuz they won't know exactly which way to run right off the first shot)!?

 

[crestoncowboy]

338 Lapua. At least, at this point, it appears that's how we will be doing it if we have to use the 110 BA.

Well I have the 338 lapua savage 110 bat with the metal chassis stock if you need any pictures or measurements. I also have a short action 12fv. And perhaps an old savage 25-06 in my safe. An old cheap deal from an auction. Left handed i believe But I think it was a savage. Otherwise I'm no help

 

[Matt304]

I came to the realization that I had thought about this the wrong way from the beginning. I was in a bit of the mindset that modifying the bolt face from a 20Ga gun would be the way to go about this since the 20Ga bolt head was the first bolt head in progression to larger that would be larger than the 505 Gibbs rim and allow me to do it, since that was the case I am working with.
Once I thought about the problem from the larger scope of things it became quickly apparent that this was a rather easy problem to solve, and somebody already spotted that above when recommending to just use the 110 action and bolt head, duh! Only I took it just a little bit further so that I won't even need to change the bolt head. What I will do is this: use the 110BA Evo gun with 338 Lapua bolt head, then I will simply turn the rim of the 505 Gibbs case down to 0.588" which is that of the 338LM, and that will be the spec of the new cartridge in order to allow easy mating to 338LM bolt face guns. Simple!

This removes the problem very quickly of needing to modify a stock system for the 110 to work with a 220 shotgun action, of course. I will just need to swap barrels but otherwise modify nothing else to be in business.

To the guy talking about a fast twist 45-70 firing 200gr .358 bullets, you are looking for all kinds of problems and upset. You won't have the selection of sabots to make it worth while. For the 1 or 2 sabots you might find, they will either work or not, chances are they won't do anything special, and then the project is toast. It's way better to ditch the sabots and use the bore size at the caliber of bullet you want. With my project, the law defines the max length of case you may use as a bottleneck, but it doesn't define the max diameter! Hence the volume is truly unlimited--I could take a BMG case if I wanted, shorten and neck it to .30 at 1.4" max case length and I would have a capacity--depending on shoulder design and neck length--potentially easily exceeding 300WM volume. With the 505 Gibbs case I have worked out the volume and I can exceed 30-06 capacity with a short neck and high angle shoulder at 1.4" OAL of case. The original goal was to meet or exceed 308 Win capacity and the realization came quickly that this would be easy with 505 Gibbs parent. With 404 Jeffery (338LM) parent the limit in capacity would be roughly that of 308 Win with 1.4" case length. Now, what the IL law does state is that the cartridge must have a commercial ammo box stating the loads have a minimum of 500ft-lbs (talk about a goofy law--what if they don't print the energy on the box?)--so we do have to have the ammo commercially produced. However this is easy to do if you know someone who mfgs commercial ammo. Just load, test, and print the data on the boxes as sold by the mfg.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

Not to put a damper on anything, but Savage built the Stryker pistol. I don't remember if mine was the 116 action, but I believe so. They made it in a few different calibers, mine was a 300 WSM. Recoil was actually not bad, but the noise, with earplugs and muffs, was painful coming out of that 14" barrel. I hunt3d with it for 1 season, took a nice 9 point buck with it and sold it.

 

[Matt304]

Not to put a damper on anything, but Savage built the Stryker pistol. I don't remember if mine was the 116 action, but I believe so. They made it in a few different calibers, mine was a 300 WSM. Recoil was actually not bad, but the noise, with earplugs and muffs, was painful coming out of that 14" barrel. I hunt3d with it for 1 season, took a nice 9 point buck with it and sold it.

The more radical thing being done here is bringing the cartridge to life. That's the meat of what's going on here. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol but the chambering will define the rest of the ability, and here in IL the law attempted to put the tamper on that end of things. We saw that and said hey wait a sec, why don't we just build it according to law and uncork this mess? Thus the project ensues.

 

[gotboostvr]

To the guy talking about a fast twist 45-70 firing 200gr .358 bullets, you are looking for all kinds of problems and upset. You won't have the selection of sabots to make it worth while. For the 1 or 2 sabots you might find, they will either work or not, chances are they won't do anything special, and then the project is toast. It's way better to ditch the sabots and use the bore size at the caliber of bullet you want.

Yeah, within YOUR constraints I wouldn't bother. But in a straight walled, 35cal or larger state MY solution is actually legal.

But it's a moot point now, I moved out west and am just going to stick with a boring ol 308win.

Best of luck with your project though!

 

[Oldschool shooter]

The more radical thing being done here is bringing the cartridge to life. That's the meat of what's going on here. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol but the chambering will define the rest of the ability, and here in IL the law attempted to put the tamper on that end of things. We saw that and said hey wait a sec, why don't we just build it according to law and uncork this mess? Thus the project ensues.

I totally understand, but starting with the existing Stryker format would give you a great starting point, then develope the cartridge afterward. If I remember correctly, using a rifle action to build a pistol is a no-no in the eyes of ATF.

 

[Matt304]

This was already taken into account from the very beginning of course and the pistol will be built legally--starting from an action registered as a pistol from Savage.

For anyone now reading who didn't follow the evolution of this oddball thread, let me recap the chain of events from the beginning:

The idea for a new cartridge started from the Illinois law for whitetail deer hunting with pistol (shotgun/muzzleloader/pistol are the three propellant-driven choices). The law has a strange requirement for "bottleneck" cartridges. It is stated that a bottleneck cartridge must be minimum 30 caliber, have a case length not exceeding 1.4", and has to have a commercial box of ammo accommodating the round to show that it has a minimum of 500ft-lbs energy. Straight-wall cases must be 30 caliber minimum but have no case length limit, so on the contrary to what's discussed here, one could use a 4" long case with a taper down to 30 cal at the front to achieve a long-range capable cartridge with sufficient powder capacity (as a taper is not considered a "bottleneck" so long as no actual shoulder exists).

From the above you can see they are trying to stop most bottleneck cartridges from being used, though it can't stop the development of a new cartridge conforming to those specs of the developer can create commercial ammo with specs on the box. I have access to a commercial supplier who agreed to load the new round commercially which we are developing--this is probably the requirement which would stop many from creating such a round, of course.

To date, there has only been 1 other round ever developed to meet these requirements in Illinois, it is the 30 Bellm. It is made from 444 Marlin brass, necked to 30 cal, 1.4" case length. It is only capable of driving a 125gr projectile to around 2350–2400fps max.

Anyways, my first thoughts to developing a new round began with an initial requirement of some arbitrary case capacity value far enough above the 30 Bellm in order to do anything considerably better than it could do. I chose the 308 Winchester because this seemed like a very satisfactory set of ballistics for deer hunting in Illinois, and it was quite the jump above 30 Bellm ballistics even at that capacity.

I knew I would need to use one of the larger cases that exist to be able to meet 308 Win capacity from just a 1.4" length case. My first two cases that I would model and inspect for potential volume were the 404 Jeffery and the 505 Gibbs. It appeared that I could actually land very close to 308 Win capacity using the 404 Jeffery, and if needed, slightly exceed it by using a very short neck for max length to the shoulder. Though as it turned out, I had just discussed the idea with a friend of mine where I pitched to him that I was considering the 505 Gibbs as well as a parent case, and he said he had close to 150 of the Gibbs cases new that I could get from him. With the current state of affairs of reloading component availability, I would be lucky to even find 404 Jeffery for some months through the normal routes of ordering online, so that pretty much sealed the deal--I'd take his new cases and design this cartridge on the 505 Gibbs instead.

Immediately I thought about rim size being 0.640", so I thought about "what Savage action would give me a booty face big enough to machine to grab this rim size?", and I came up with the Savage 220 shotgun action. But I needed to use a stock which allowed AR-style components for a Sig brace, which was the 110BA stock. That's how this thread started! The act of adapting a 220 action into a 110 frame, was the initial idea. As soon as I decided to simply modify the Gibbs case to have a 404 Jeffery rim size, all of the problems went away and I could simply use the 110BA right from the get go.

I attached a drawing of the cartridge as it theoretically exists at this point, the shoulder is drawn a little over exaggerated at 45°, it will in fact be 40°, and the rim is drawn to 505 Gibbs size instead of 404 Jeffery. To be honest I'm content with actually having a 45° shoulder, however I don't find many (any?) Ackley Improved cartridges using a shoulder steeper than 40°. I suspect the reason may have something to do with shoulder bumping when sizing--45° may be beyond something workable in sizing where cases tend to crush if the shoulder is sized. This dimension I still will look into for reference data, because here in this instance the steepest shoulder possible actually benefits the cartridge design since most capacity at a given length is ideal here. The neck length is 0.100" and a short neck can play a potential important part in obtaining accuracy--though this idea is more trivial in nature at this point since there are few circumstances pointing to anything which is inherent in nature. Anyways, besides those two changes--rim and shoulder--the drawing is effectively what the cartridge will otherwise look like, drawn to scale next to a 308 Win case.