I just picked up a Springfield 38 super 1911-A1 and will be loading some 38 super rounds. My question is this according to my Lyman manual the 38 super max diameter is 0.356" and 9mm is 0.3555" and most 38 special bullets are listed as 0.357". It seems like I can use 9mm bullets for loading 38 super am I correct? Thanks.
Can 9mm bullets be used to load 38 super?
- Thread starter distra
- Start date
- Status
You should be able to with no safety issues. Just start with a reasonable minimum and work your way up, like always.
Main potential issue is they may not be very accurate. From what I've heard, .355" bullets through a .357" bore (like a 9mm conversion cylinder on a revolver) results in really awful accuracy.
Oh, wait, scratch that. 9mm bullets will probably have too long of an ogive. 9mm has a max length of 1.169", and a case length of 0.754". .38 Super is 1.120" overall, 0.900" case. So 0.415" of the bullet can stick out of a 9mm (nearly all of which will be ogive for most), compared to only 0.220" for .38 Super.
Main potential issue is they may not be very accurate. From what I've heard, .355" bullets through a .357" bore (like a 9mm conversion cylinder on a revolver) results in really awful accuracy.
Oh, wait, scratch that. 9mm bullets will probably have too long of an ogive. 9mm has a max length of 1.169", and a case length of 0.754". .38 Super is 1.120" overall, 0.900" case. So 0.415" of the bullet can stick out of a 9mm (nearly all of which will be ogive for most), compared to only 0.220" for .38 Super.
ReloaderFred
Member
I use 9mm bullets in my various .38 Super's all the time, and the accuracy is great. It depends on the bullet, of course, and the load.
Bullets made specifically for .38 Super are normally sized .356", but I've also seen .38 Super barrels that were .355" and .357" in diameter. It will depend on what your new pistol prefers.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Bullets made specifically for .38 Super are normally sized .356", but I've also seen .38 Super barrels that were .355" and .357" in diameter. It will depend on what your new pistol prefers.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Last edited:
Mr. 16 gauge
Member
I have the exact same firearm and use 9mm bullets to reload for it all the time.....I also use cast bullets sized to .356 in both the Super and the 9mm, and I have a load using SR4756 powder and a Lee 120 TC bullet giving me a clover leaf groups out of the Super at 20 yards......off hand! Good luck!
jjohnson
Member
Sure - but you can Slug your Bore.
Yeah, you can use 9mm. Back in the old days - with lots of Spanish and South American companies making 38 Super, which was very popular down south for a long time - bores were sort of all over the place.
If you have any doubts, just slug your bore. It's likely .355 - or you could just ask the manufacturer. If it's .355, you have the same bore diameter as "spec" for 9mm, so you should be just fine. Cast bullets for 9mm usually go .356, but not always.
I have a Ruger convertible - 9mm/357, and it's not bad with 9mm in the larger bore with cast reloads, but it doesn't do so well with the .355 ball. Hope this helps.
Yeah, you can use 9mm. Back in the old days - with lots of Spanish and South American companies making 38 Super, which was very popular down south for a long time - bores were sort of all over the place.
If you have any doubts, just slug your bore. It's likely .355 - or you could just ask the manufacturer. If it's .355, you have the same bore diameter as "spec" for 9mm, so you should be just fine. Cast bullets for 9mm usually go .356, but not always.
I have a Ruger convertible - 9mm/357, and it's not bad with 9mm in the larger bore with cast reloads, but it doesn't do so well with the .355 ball. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the info. One more question, is it possible use 9mm dies for 38 super? My 550 9mm shell plate and powder funnel work with both. I know I would have to adjust the seating and crimp dies for the increase in case length and the sizing is almost the same, but will the sizing die work?
grendelbane
Member
The 9mm case is tapered, whereas the .38 Super case is straight. The sizing dies will not interchange.
Now, I do use a 9x19 die set to load my 9x23mm Winchester. Externally, the 9x23 is basically the same size as the 9x19, except for the extra length.
The belling die and the seating die can be adjusted to load both cases, as length is the only difference.
As far as bullet diameters go, your pistol may prefer one diameter, or another. You can slug the barrel,but you will have to actually shoot it to know for sure. (Most people get this one backwards, for some reason).
My Hornady manual, for example, lists loads in .38 Super for both .355" and , .357" bullets. Start low, work your way up, and use whichever one gives the best results.
Now, I do use a 9x19 die set to load my 9x23mm Winchester. Externally, the 9x23 is basically the same size as the 9x19, except for the extra length.
The belling die and the seating die can be adjusted to load both cases, as length is the only difference.
As far as bullet diameters go, your pistol may prefer one diameter, or another. You can slug the barrel,but you will have to actually shoot it to know for sure. (Most people get this one backwards, for some reason).
My Hornady manual, for example, lists loads in .38 Super for both .355" and , .357" bullets. Start low, work your way up, and use whichever one gives the best results.
jjohnson
Member
9mm Luger Dies for .38 Super
Well, as the previous post says, the Luger case is tapered, the Super isn't.
But.....
I load 9mm Largo (measures 9x23) in Luger dies - which the manufacturer agreed should work fine, not unlike loading .357 with .38 special dies. Not the best arrangement - they'd rather you do it the other way around, but okay.
I have a bunch of .38 Super brass that I tried just for the experiment, to load in my 9mm Luger dies while I was set up for the 9x23 dimensions of the Largo.
The Super has a little bit of a rim, and Spanish pistols at one time were often made for Super as well as Largo and were said to be able to chamber both.
Important safety note - I'm talking dimensions here. I am NOT saying you should see what will chamber where just to shoot extra ammo in the wrong caliber. Some of the old Largo pistols are DANGEROUS if you try to stuff .38 Super ammo in them. DON'T DO IT.
Anyway, I loaded some .38 Super casings using the 9mm Largo settings and a reduced charge. What I found was the Spanish pistol does in fact kinda sorta work with Super cases loaded to .38 Auto pressures after being run through the dies. Sometimes. The extraction and cycling went fine on the ones that chambered, but not all of them chambered.
SO - it will work - but poorly. You really should be using .38 Super dies to reload .38 Super. It's worth a few bucks to get the right dies.
I don't recommend fooling around with this sort of experiment unless you really know what you're doing.
Well, as the previous post says, the Luger case is tapered, the Super isn't.
But.....
I load 9mm Largo (measures 9x23) in Luger dies - which the manufacturer agreed should work fine, not unlike loading .357 with .38 special dies. Not the best arrangement - they'd rather you do it the other way around, but okay.
I have a bunch of .38 Super brass that I tried just for the experiment, to load in my 9mm Luger dies while I was set up for the 9x23 dimensions of the Largo.
The Super has a little bit of a rim, and Spanish pistols at one time were often made for Super as well as Largo and were said to be able to chamber both.
Important safety note - I'm talking dimensions here. I am NOT saying you should see what will chamber where just to shoot extra ammo in the wrong caliber. Some of the old Largo pistols are DANGEROUS if you try to stuff .38 Super ammo in them. DON'T DO IT.
Anyway, I loaded some .38 Super casings using the 9mm Largo settings and a reduced charge. What I found was the Spanish pistol does in fact kinda sorta work with Super cases loaded to .38 Auto pressures after being run through the dies. Sometimes. The extraction and cycling went fine on the ones that chambered, but not all of them chambered.
SO - it will work - but poorly. You really should be using .38 Super dies to reload .38 Super. It's worth a few bucks to get the right dies.
I don't recommend fooling around with this sort of experiment unless you really know what you're doing.
Agreed. Picked up a set of Hornady dies at a the toy store this weekend for not too much $$$ so I'm good to go. I normally use Dillon dies in my 550, but these work just fine and were 20% cheaper than Dillon. I have the 9mm shell plate which works fine with the Super round. The factory ammo I was using has a bullet diameter of 0.35" so I'm going to try my 9mm 124gr RN which measure 0.35" over the minimum load of 4.0gr Bullseye. We'll see how it shoot. Can't wait to get the 9mm barrel installed to see how that works.
AgentOrange
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 110
i have used 380 dies to load 9mm. i have also used 9mm dies to load 38 special and 357, as well as used 45 ACP dies to reload 45 colt. now, i wouldnt reccomend doing it all the time, but in a pintch, works great.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
A .380 sizing die would squeeze 9mm brass down well below normal case diminsions (.374 vis .391") and would be asking for trouble.
rc
rc
Larry Burchfield
Member
38super/9mm
Most modern 38supers are made using 9mm bore barrels. You might want to have the barrel miked to see what size it is. The 9mm is .355 and the super is .356.
They are both loaded with the same set of dies.
Larry Burchfield
SEABEES/RVN/67/68/69
DAV
Most modern 38supers are made using 9mm bore barrels. You might want to have the barrel miked to see what size it is. The 9mm is .355 and the super is .356.
They are both loaded with the same set of dies.
Larry Burchfield
SEABEES/RVN/67/68/69
DAV
GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,150
The Springfield Armory .38supers have 9mm barrels. I've gotten outstanding accuracy from mine using .355" bullets.
Many of the Colts have the .357"bbls and will shoot better with the larger bullets.
Some custom SA's however may also have the larger diameter bbl's.
FWIW, 9mm specs' say that it's .3545". The Remington bullets are sized to this spec.......... Per the box of 2,000 that mine come in. These give superlative accuracy so, I suppose that Remington knows what they're doing. A .355" bullet will generally shoot well too, if properly executed.
For 99% of my 9mm/.38Super shooting, I use the Lee 120gr TC with SPG lube. Shoots near MOA from my S&W Perf. CTR 9's...
Many of the Colts have the .357"bbls and will shoot better with the larger bullets.
Some custom SA's however may also have the larger diameter bbl's.
FWIW, 9mm specs' say that it's .3545". The Remington bullets are sized to this spec.......... Per the box of 2,000 that mine come in. These give superlative accuracy so, I suppose that Remington knows what they're doing. A .355" bullet will generally shoot well too, if properly executed.
For 99% of my 9mm/.38Super shooting, I use the Lee 120gr TC with SPG lube. Shoots near MOA from my S&W Perf. CTR 9's...
rfwobbly
Member
The converse certainly works
In a search for bullets that were "heavy", but not as heavy as 147gr, I once experimented with loading and shooting 130 and 135gr 38-Super bullets in my 9mm CZ. They worked pretty good.
38-Super is a derivative of the 9mm, not of the larger diameter 38-Special, as the name would have you suspect. According to my books, both bullets are .355 diameter. So yes, go ahead and try it... but start building your loads as per usual practice from the bottom working up.
In a search for bullets that were "heavy", but not as heavy as 147gr, I once experimented with loading and shooting 130 and 135gr 38-Super bullets in my 9mm CZ. They worked pretty good.
38-Super is a derivative of the 9mm, not of the larger diameter 38-Special, as the name would have you suspect. According to my books, both bullets are .355 diameter. So yes, go ahead and try it... but start building your loads as per usual practice from the bottom working up.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
NO, they are not.
The 9mm Luger has a .011" taper from mouth to base.
The .38 Super has none.
Sizing Super in a 9mm die would not size it at the base.
Sizing 9mm in a Super die would squeeze the base down .007" too small.
Also, according to SAAMI specs, Super brass has a thicker neck then 9mm, and even allowing for .355" vis .356" bullets, would be sized too small at the mouth in a 9mm die.
9mm Luger dies will load 9mm Luger, 9x21mm, 9x23 Win, and 356 TSW.
.38 Super dies will load .38 Colt Automatic and .38 Super.
rc
Colt introduced the .38 Super Auto cartridge in 1929, an improved version of the .38ACP. It was designed from the git-go to use .355" bullets; i.e., 9mm. Of three reloading manuals - Hornady, Sierra and Speer - only Speer shows bullets of .357" diameter as an alternative to the standard .355" bullets in the .38 Super.
There are, of course, variations in barrel groove diameters and some .38 Super pistols may give improved accuracy if .357" bullets are used. Slugging your bore would be a good idea. I personally own an early commercial CZ-75 (9mm) with a groove diameter of .358" and I've loaded many .357" bullets for it. My S&W Model 586 .357 Magnum revolver OTOH has a groove diameter of .356" and 9mm bullets work just fine in it.
In early pistols, accuracy of the .38 Super was marginal because headspacing was on the small semi-rim of the case. Rim thickness varied and headspacing was inconsistent. Newer pistols use chambers that headspace on the case mouth and accuracy has improved accordingly. That also opens the possibility of using rimless cases in your .38 Super. The 9mm Largo cases work just fine in my pistol.
The 9x23mm Winchester case is also usable.
There are, of course, variations in barrel groove diameters and some .38 Super pistols may give improved accuracy if .357" bullets are used. Slugging your bore would be a good idea. I personally own an early commercial CZ-75 (9mm) with a groove diameter of .358" and I've loaded many .357" bullets for it. My S&W Model 586 .357 Magnum revolver OTOH has a groove diameter of .356" and 9mm bullets work just fine in it.
In early pistols, accuracy of the .38 Super was marginal because headspacing was on the small semi-rim of the case. Rim thickness varied and headspacing was inconsistent. Newer pistols use chambers that headspace on the case mouth and accuracy has improved accordingly. That also opens the possibility of using rimless cases in your .38 Super. The 9mm Largo cases work just fine in my pistol.
The 9x23mm Winchester case is also usable.
Last edited:
this is quite funny, I had never seen .357 data for a 38 super, I use aa#2 and the aa site use to be a good source for neet bullet diagrams and stuff, but its all gone now they do not list aa#2 for 38 super any more and say its .357. I dont know when they changed their data but its poor now. The Brian Enos site has plenty of 38 super shooters most claim .356 as the standard. I would suggest looking at www.38super.net
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I had a colt .38 super. The only ammo I could find was w/w silvertips that would not feed. I had some 9mm that my brother loaded for me. I shot 100 rounds with no failures whatsoever. Course I was young and dumb, but they worked just fine.
ReloaderFred
Member
While the 9x23mm Winchester Magnum case is also usable, I'd avoid them because factory 9x23 Mag cartridges should NEVER be shot in a .38 Super. Someone who only reloads for .38 Super might be OK but if they have guns for both cartridges, they need to be very careful not to mix them up.
The 9mm Winchester Magnum round is different than the 9x23 Winchester cartridge. Please don't mix the two up.
The 9mm Winchester Magnum case measures 1.16" long, whereas the 9x23 Winchester case measures .900" long, the same as the .38 acp and .38 Super.
I've talked at length with Paul Nowak, of Winchester, who was instrumental in getting Winchester to produce the 9x23 round. He did in fact shoot IPSC with a .38 Super for over a year, using 9x23 factory ammunition, but doesn't recommend it. This was before there were barrels chambered specifically for the 9x23 Winchester.
I'm not recommending that the two rounds be fired interchangeably, but simply clarifying the statement made by doubs43.
Paul Nowak probably knows more about the 9x23 Winchester and it's history, than anyone else.
Sorry to get off subject, but this needed to be cleared up.
Hope this helps.
Fred
The 9mm Winchester Magnum round is different than the 9x23 Winchester cartridge. Please don't mix the two up.
The 9mm Winchester Magnum case measures 1.16" long, whereas the 9x23 Winchester case measures .900" long, the same as the .38 acp and .38 Super.
I've talked at length with Paul Nowak, of Winchester, who was instrumental in getting Winchester to produce the 9x23 round. He did in fact shoot IPSC with a .38 Super for over a year, using 9x23 factory ammunition, but doesn't recommend it. This was before there were barrels chambered specifically for the 9x23 Winchester.
I'm not recommending that the two rounds be fired interchangeably, but simply clarifying the statement made by doubs43.
Paul Nowak probably knows more about the 9x23 Winchester and it's history, than anyone else.
Sorry to get off subject, but this needed to be cleared up.
Hope this helps.
Fred
In the 1980s, I used to re-load for, and did a great deal of Target shooing with, an early Colt .38 Auto 'Sporting' Model.
I used regular 148 Grn Semi-Wadcutters of .357 diameter otherwise intended for .38 S & W Special...and used a somewhat lightened Powder load, so it was just enough to shoot fairly flat and consistantly at 25 yards, and was very dependable for 50 yards also, with a little reliable drop.
Depending on your feed ramp being happy to have these slide up and in, these might be a nice option.
Always fed fine for me, but granted, the .38 Autocolt is a different Arm.
I also sometimes used 9mm Bullets, plain Lead, of a sort of pointy-round nose, which were 'light', 120 or 125 grn I think...but I soon found that I prefered the Semi-Wads for their neat Hole-Cutting in Paper.
Phil
l v
I used regular 148 Grn Semi-Wadcutters of .357 diameter otherwise intended for .38 S & W Special...and used a somewhat lightened Powder load, so it was just enough to shoot fairly flat and consistantly at 25 yards, and was very dependable for 50 yards also, with a little reliable drop.
Depending on your feed ramp being happy to have these slide up and in, these might be a nice option.
Always fed fine for me, but granted, the .38 Autocolt is a different Arm.
I also sometimes used 9mm Bullets, plain Lead, of a sort of pointy-round nose, which were 'light', 120 or 125 grn I think...but I soon found that I prefered the Semi-Wads for their neat Hole-Cutting in Paper.
Phil
l v
Phil, that sounds like the Lyman #356402 bullet which is a truncated cone design similar to the original 9mm bullet used by the German military. I've found it to be a reliable feeder in every pistol I've shot it in and very accurate. But, as you point out, it doesn't cut a nice neat hole in a target. Lyman designed it to weigh 121 grains.
- Status
