Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?

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I am carrying one right now - it is my usual summer carry,

an old reliable FEG with 2 extra mags full of S&B ball ammo. This was a police loading in europe, runs pretty hot and has been 100% reliable and very accurate.
In winter I usually go with a .45 ACP, but I like John Browning's favorite cartridge - the .32 ACP- too, but hell, I'm a liberal, so what do I know....


mark
 
WOW - this thread just keeps going(2008-2010). After supper tonight, I think I will cook up a pan of pop corn and start over, reading from the top. This is one topic where there will never be agreement. Some of the opinions are down right amusing though.
 
Just to add to the 32. vs .380 in european police forces:

From what i´ve heard and read it was very common for police forces
to carry carbines on duty. The neigborhood officer would only
have his .32 PPK, but if trouble arose you would always face
Cops with rifles.
It was a dictatorship with an emperor at the top,
believe me there were plenty of cops around, to
cope with trouble when it arose.
( breaking up union-demonstration by firing into the crowd with K98s)

It´s not like the "Wachtmeister" back then or in the Nazi-era had to fight extensive
gunbattles with his PPK. His authority would suffice most of the time.
In a police-state there is more police around
than in a democracy - for obvious reasons.

So the caliber vs caliber argumentation is at a deadend there,
because situation and use were way different than today.

Pick a gun that u can carry comfortably and that
you can draw and shoot well with. Obeying rule #1 is key
in that one in a million situation, that will probably never happen
to the vast majority of us.

02$
 
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while many of the younger xbox warrior crowd with weeks of experience reading guns and ammo, and several online wins, will state that the 45, or the gatling gun is the only weapon to carry, the 32 will work as a self defense weapon. For about the last 100 years it has been a principal side arm for both military and police in European countries.
Please, list all the various European police agencies, and the various European military units that carry the .32 as their principle side arm.
 
We all know the 380 is on the edge of acceptability in a carry gun, thus 20 new 380's in the last 2 years. No one is pushing 32's why would that be.Most of us know why. They are a poor self defense round. There is no one who has come out with a new 32,. Keltek and seacamp were the last two maybe bersa or american arms. because there is no market for them. And why is there no market for them. Because they lack the necessary ballistics of a round used for self defense.

What kind of terminal ballistics are necessary? .32 ACP's penetration with non-expanding bullets seems respectable by most standards:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page820.htm

Several needed more than one gelatin block, penetrating over 16", and one penetrated 13.8" after flipping around. I'd take this over the terminal ballistics of .380 ACP JHPs that are so popular these days.

Sure you can use it, I have a couple boxes in my safe. But I can use my wamo slingshot also.

How much penetration does your slingshot get?

I wouldn't want to get into a situation wher I had to defend myself or my family with a 32 cliber pistol as my only weapon. Especially with badguys wearing coats on and carrying big ass guns. it's just a recipie for disaster. And I sure would not want to get very close to anyone carrying a 1911 or a M&P, or any decent weapon system with that 32.

I use an M&P40 for home defense, and I wouldn't want to face anybody carrying any kind of gun because I might end up dead (especially somebody who knows what loads to use in order to get sufficient penetration).

32's are famous for failure to expand, and hitting somone with 2 or three layers of clothing on, is going to piss them off unless you hit a vital.

Expanding just makes the bullet wider. That helps your chances by some small amount, but all bullets are still small relative to the target. Even a fully-expanded .45 ACP is just going to piss bad guys off unless you hit a vital (and they are determined to fight). Granted, it has a somewhat greater chance of doing so, and if you can shoot it as well as .32 ACP, then it's a worthwhile upgrade given the high stakes involved, but in my opinion it's still just an edge, hardly a vast difference in capability. As long as sufficient penetration is achieved everything else in an ordinary handgun caliber is highly subject to the law of diminishing returns. And of course no ordinary handgun caliber has any inherent "stopping power" whatsoever, apart from an effective combination of penetration and shot placement.

On the other hand you have a chance with your pf-9 and some corb-ons,or hydro shocks, big difference. 110-124 grain and he or they will not get up if hit in the chest.

It depends on where you hit them. For example:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=537790

Granted, it's an extreme example that happened because of strange luck, but it does illustrate quite vividly the utter lack of "stopping power" possessed by this "respectable" service caliber. While I don't know exactly what transpired during this incident, I doubt that a single bullet to the chest would have kept him down for the count. On the other hand, a single .32 ACP bullet with the right placement (which depends mostly on luck) could have severed his carotid artery and killed him very quickly.

And most tiny 32's are 6 or 7 rounds, you may need 2 or 3 round or more to put down a big guy running at you.

If that's all it would take, then great! :cool: Personally, I don't expect that it would take much, if any, fewer for larger calibers, though. Not that I would necessarily know the difference anyway, should I ever be forced to shoot a bad guy, since they'd get 3 quick shots right off the bat no matter what, the third one aimed at their head (assuming that the shots hit where they're aimed, of course, and it isn't that easy in a real shooting).
 
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IF you take out the stereotypes and how little some people know, you find that the 32acp is not a bad gun for self defense. The diameter of the 32acp bullet is .309 vs .355 for the 380/9mm/38/357. Basically, 12% smaller. That is the only real disadvantage. The importance of any pistol bullet is penetration. A FMJ 32acp, on average, will penetrate between 13-16 inches. This is more than enough penetration; according to just about ANY authority or so called expert.

Bullets are a catch-22. Bullets are invented with greater weight, to increase penetration. However, as modern propellants were developed, they realized that these same weight bullets could then OVER-Penetrate. Some pistols cartridges, like the 45acp, were a small enough casing, that they still maintained their 850-950 fps. With a LRN, the penetration was in the 12-14" range. But with the 9mm, 38spl, 357 mag, etc.... the additional velocity with standard fmj/lrn type bullets pushed them too deep.

Then, hollow points became a very popular bullet. They achieved 2 things. Most important, they did the parachute effect and slowed the bullet down so it wouldn't over-penetrate. Also, by shear force, it expanded the bullet. Any increase in diameter, means more potential tissue damage. Assuming of course that you don't give up on penetration. I.e. a 45acp doubling in size may sound great, but not if it only penetrated 4-5 inches. Well, unfortunately, Hollow-points had their catch-22 also. Not enough velocity, or quality deficiency, or "Clogging effect", and the hollow point won't expand. Then the hollow-point is a toss up. it "MIGHT" act like a fmj/lrn and penetrate very well; or it slows down too much. So, to have the best odds, modern bullets with hollow-points tend to push the 1000+fps. All the way up to around 1400-1500 fps; depending on the caliber.

Now; does this mean that a 32acp can't be an effective defense round? No, not at all. Doesn't mean it's equal to or better than a 380, 9mm, 38, 40, 45, or 357; just that it can be effective. If your accuracy with a 32acp is 9.5 out of 10 compared to 6.5 out of 10 with a 40s&w, then the 32acp is actually more effective than the 40s&w. What is important, is to not try and make the 32acp what it is not. Don't use a ford focus to hall trash to the dump. Don't use a ford F250 single cab to take the family on a summer vacation.

With the 32acp, use fmj or LFN (Buffalo-Bore). I prefer the Buffalo-bore or the winchester flat nose. They create larger entrance holes and more tissue damage. They don't slip/slide through like most fmj do. They still penetrate acceptably from 13-16 inches. And contrary to those who don't know what they're talking about, they don't just "Piss someone off".

Now, if you live in the northern states, where there's a lot more layers of clothing; e.g. heavy coat, sweatshirt, and undershirt; then the 32acp probably doesn't have the mass necessary to penetrate the 13-16 inches. And therefor, it will be much less effective. But if the environment you are going to use it, is a typical single layer of clothing, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a non-hp 32acp.

People who swear against this, truly do not know what they are talking about. Of course, if a person's position is 1) recommending a single gun for multiple purposes; 2) Paranoid into believing that they need 10+ rounds in a magazine; or 3) Carrying the most powerful handgun that an individual can possibly handle, because you never know what the scenario can be; then these people will never even consider a 32acp. And there is nothing that anyone can say or prove that will get them to see the facts and admit it.

But again, it's all about perception. The 32acp is most definitely an acceptable round for self defense; if used properly. When I'm at a dinner party, carrying a 45acp or even a 9mm concealed can be very difficult because of the attire. However, a 32acp or 380 in an ankle holster is small and light enough to be useful. When you get to the size of guns like the LCP, Seecamp, Kel-tec, kahr, etc... the higher the caliber, the more difficult it is to shoot accurately. I will guarantee my 7 shots in my walther or FEG 32acp will be dead on target at 10 yards; compared to the same 7 shots out of my kel-tec 9mm. However, there are times the 32acp just isn't the appropriate round. I believe that most 32acp proponents understand the limitations. The 32acp critics however, refuse to admit that the 32acp actually has some advantages. And sometimes, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

We don't carry a 12 gauge because it's not practical. We compromise by carrying a pistol. And even the 44 magnum has disadvantages over the 12 gauge. However, the 44 mag has some advantages over the 12 gauge. Well, while the 45acp and 40S&W have advantages over the 32acp, the 32acp does have so advantages over the 45acp and 40s&w.
 
Several needed more than one gelatin block, penetrating over 16", and one penetrated 13.8" after flipping around. I'd take this over the terminal ballistics of .380 ACP JHPs that are so popular these days.
This is a false comparison IMO. You're comparing an apple to an orange.

Compare a .32acp ball round to a .380acp ball round, and the .380 out penetrates the .32 while also making a bigger hole. Comparing JHP to JHP, the .380 still out penetrates the .32 while also expanding to a MUCH larger diameter in the top designs (There is no Corbon DPX+P in .32acp)

And it's rimless, unlike the .32acp.
 
Actually, comparisons are necessary. What matters is the purpose. E.g. If you want a car, and the ONLY pre-requisite is that is can go 55 mph for city/county driving, then you can definitely compare it to a Ferrari. It doesn't matter if the Ferrari can go 150mph. Well, if I want a pistol that can penetrate 12-15", then it doesn't matter if it's a 32acp, 380, or 45acp. No, if you want to argue that the 32acp won't penetrate that much through layers of winter clothing, then I agree with you. And I wouldn't have it for winter use. And if I could only afford 1 gun, I wouldn't buy a 32acp. But I can afford any gun and as many of them I want. Therefor, for my summer use, or in situations where a single layer of clothing is all I have to go through, I am quite confident with a 32acp. Stop the threat. That is my goal. I'm not shooting at engine blocks. I don't need 15 rounds in the magazine. This is why I have 4-5 different pistols that I use for defense. Some for in the house, some for carrying outside, some for carrying when indoors, etc... The 32acp definitely has a time and place where it's a very efficient self defense gun. Just because many people don't know WHEN or WHERE that time and place is, isn't the gun's fault.
 
Buffalo-Bore has a 32acp+p load that is hotter than standard 380 loads. 1150 fps and 220 ft/lbs. Standard 380 is less than that. Yes, you can get +p 380, but that's a straw argument, because you can keep going until you're convinced you need a 460 s&w or 500 for self defense.
 
What's to stop manufacturers from producing +p loadings in .32's?

The question is why don't SAAMI wake up and bring domestic ammo upto CIP spec. SAAMI has a max psi of 21,000psi, CIP has a max psi of 26,000psi. I have some S&B bimetal 7.65Br with the slick nickle instead of copper. These rounds are loaded to full CIP specs. The cases eject more than twice as far as winchester, remington or federal. Fiocchi also makes a full spec 7.65Br load.

If you ignore weak SAAMI ammo and buy real ammo made in Europe to CIP specs, then you will pretty much have a 32acp +P+ load.

The problem is the ammo spec SAAMI has put forth. Refuse to buy it. Get some Fiocchi or S&B. I think it was mentioned earlier. Fiocchi has a 60 grain hollowpoint stepping at 1200fps. Brake out your handy dandy calculator and do some figurein' Beats most 380 loads for 'power' and is equal to a few. Bonus is with this ammo you get MORE 'power' than 380 AND extra rounds in the gun...
 
Most European cartridges loaded in America are "lawyer loads". Look at CIP specs for most of the Euro military cartridges and compare to SAAMI. SAAMI always goes to for the lowest proofing for liability.
 
Most European cartridges loaded in America are "lawyer loads". Look at CIP specs for most of the Euro military cartridges and compare to SAAMI. SAAMI always goes to for the lowest proofing for liability.

I have a CIP loading manual. Most starting loads for CIP loads are higher than SAAMI maximum specs that have warnings and sirens all over them warning your gun WILL explode if you do not start 10% below the SAAMI starting load and workup. My CIP loading manual has a 147 grain load for the 9mm XTP, 1207fps. That makes IPSC major, from a 4" barrel and is still 2,000psi LOWER than CIPs maximum pressure. SAAMI specs are a joke at best. Even their so called "+P" is weaker than CIP specs.

That 147 grain 9mm CIP load is only 30fps slower than a 357SIG 147 load. But hey, thats what happens when CIP 9x19mm specs are only 800psi lower than SAAMIs spec for 357SIG....
 
Buffalo-Bore has a 32acp+p load that is hotter than standard 380 loads. 1150 fps and 220 ft/lbs. Standard 380 is less than that. Yes, you can get +p 380, but that's a straw argument, because you can keep going until you're convinced you need a 460 s&w or 500 for self defense.
.380 Buffalo Bore +P has 295fpe of energy.

Note: These energy levels are not what you're gonna get out of a little gun like an LCP, but more what you'd get out of something like a Sig 232.

I think both calibers will easily kill with good placement and appropriate ammo selection, but the .380 has three clear advantages.

1) far more guns are available in that caliber
2) it has far greater factory ammo support
3) It is a rimless design, which has a very real world impact on the .32acps utility as a gunfighting tool. Rimlock during a gunfight, and you're dead.

I am a former Kel Tec P32 .32acp owner and CCW'er. More than any other issue, it was the guns consistent rimlocking with Buffalo Bore hard cast lead +P flat nose ammo, even with the use of KT anti-rimlock kits installed in the magazine, that made me sell it. My LCP fires a bigger, faster, heavier Buffalo Bore flat nose- without ANY chance of a rimlock failure.

I agree with the SAAMI ratings issues as well. With true "full power" ammo the 9mm exceeds 500fpe of energy, and the .380 can just about hit 300fpe.
 
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The 380 pistols are the same size as the 32 pistol, the 380 will not rim lock, there are more choices in 380 pistols and the 380 cartridge is clearly superior to the 32, so what's the point in picking a 32 over a 380?
 
Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant. Even then it was only to see if it could be done.

If some darn fool idgit loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round, then its called natural selection......

Never seen a P32 (and I seen plenty) EVER rimlock. I might try it some day to see if I can find the stupidity somewhere in me and load a round so it will remlock. Its the only way I see it happening...
 
.32 is sub par as a defensive caliber in my opinion, it would make a great plinking round if it was cheaper. I really don't know why people still use the .32 when you can get the same size gun in .380. Bigger holes= Faster Incapacitation
 
Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant. Even then it was only to see if it could be done.

If some darn fool idgit loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round, then its called natural selection......

Never seen a P32 (and I seen plenty) EVER rimlock. I might try it some day to see if I can find the stupidity somewhere in me and load a round so it will remlock. Its the only way I see it happening...
Rimlocking is a function of cartridge length. Buffalo Bore hard cast lead flat nose ammo is VERY short in OAL, and rimlocks consistently in a P32 mag, even with a rimlock kit installed.

I took to carrying the top round in the mag and the chamber round with Buffalo Bore, and then backed those up with 9 more Corbon JHPs.

The pistol was fluffed and buffed, had extra strength springs installed, extra strength mag springs (which are supposed to apply more pressure on the rounds and reduce rimlock), and a CT laser. I typically carried it with the 10rd mag inserted, and a 7rd mag in the watch pocket of my jeans for backup.

Here's a pic of my old P32:

KeltecCTdailycarrybattery2.jpg

I got rid of it because of the rimlock issue, and it's propensity to eject the mag when i wore it with the clip- even after i replaced the mag release button/spring, and shaved the button down to almost flush with the frame.
 
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Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant. Even then it was only to see if it could be done.

If some darn fool idgit loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round, then its called natural selection......

Never seen a P32 (and I seen plenty) EVER rimlock. I might try it some day to see if I can find the stupidity somewhere in me and load a round so it will remlock. Its the only way I see it happening...

You don't have to be a "darn fool idgit" to get rimlock in a P32.
I had rimlock happen in my P32 and I didn't "loads a 7.65Br ontop of another in a magazine with the rim of the top round behind the rim of a lower round."
If you use jhp with their shorter OAL in the P32 without a spacer in the magazine rimlock can happen.

If you use fmj in the P32 rimlock is much less likely to happen but still possible because the 32 round unlike the 380 round has a rim that has a larger diameter than the cartridge case if the rounds in the magazine get jostled enough to bounce the rim of one cartrige over the next round.
dcp01853.jpg
 
Maybe my problem is I do not use a fancy smancy capacity extender on mine. I tested hollowpoints in my P32 and found expansion unreliable and when it did penetration went out the window. In the 100 or so various hollowpoints I tried, I never had a single rimlock.

Like I said. Only gun I ever seen rimlock was a 1891 mosin nagant.

I only carry real CIP spec 7.65Br in mine. Even the snappy Fiocchi 60 grain hollowpoint that makes corbon look like a softball load would not penetrate enough.

If anyone thinks the magical properties of 380 over a same powered 7.65Br will make you a better defended person, then confidence is everthing when it comes to weapons skills. If someone needs that fuzzy feeling the 380 gives them, then use it. Just realize that CIP spec 7.65Br has the same "power" as them 9mm Kurz rounds most think will work better.......
 
So you fired 100 whole hollowpoints out of one single firearm, and came to the conclusion that rimlock is a non issue?

.380 projectiles are bigger and heavier, and can be driven at least as fast as .32acp, if not faster.

Those are all very real tangible reasons why one can say a ".380 is better than a .32 for defense."
 
valorius

I get what you are saying. I have seen some pretty stout 380 loads that will best any 7.65 Br load. They were Milsurp Santa Barbra rounds made for military use that had a "soft point" These rounds are wicked! The truncated flat point will make a nice wound and penetration is not an issue. Only problem is they are nowhere to be found anymore.

When you stoke that 380 with domestic 380 ammo, hollowpoint or ball, the 7.65Br equals it with CIP spec ammo. No beatin' around the bush about it.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=338777

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=452046

compared to

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=141679

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=638305

Bonus for me is I have a P32 and my brother has a P3AT. Shoot some real ammo in the P32 and there is no difference in feel between the two unless I shoot some SAAMI specd ammo. If I keep it real there is no difference. We even shot us a few critters that like to make nests in the straw in the barns. Shots are close and there is no difference in how either one works. I even tested some ninja rounds called extremeshok in my P32 because I am a curious kind of guy. On raccoons they work awesome. Best killing rounds I fired from my P32. Used 11 rounds from the two packs I bought and kept one for keepsake. By used I mean killed 11 raccoons with them. My test medium is a little different than most folks.

380, meh, it has no real advantage if you pick your ammo right and keep that SAAMI crud on the shelves and not buy it.....
 
I've been shooting 32acp for about 20+ years. The ONLY time I've every had a rimlock, was when I was younger and didn't know any better, and took some foolish advice from people that loaded their magazines with different rounds. I.e. Some people say they like to load a Hollow point in the chamber and 2 FMJ behind it in the magazine. Then followed with Hollow Points again. This is such foolishness. When I've kept the SAME ammunition, from the SAME BOX, in the magazine, I've NEVER EVER had a Rim lock. And when I've mixed ammo; even in so called "Non-Rimlock" rounds; including 45acp and 9mm, those are the times I've had feeding issues. Might not be called rimlock, but the same exact issue happened. it didn't feed correctly. But since I've grown up and stopped pretending I was preparing for gun fights and going to have 5 gang members shooting at me behind a dumpster, and I started loading magazines with the same ammo; INCLUDING BUFFALO-BORE; I've not had one rimlock or feeding error because of the way the bullets were seated in the magazine.
 
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