Can a .32 ACP CC gun have enough balls to be a respectable defense gun?

[usp9]

Rimlock has little to nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded. It has everything to do with magazine design, excess space, case shape and length of the ammo. Some guns are prone to rimlock, and some aren't, regardless of the user or loading ability. It's no big mystery.

 

[kokapelli]

Rimlock has little to nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded. It has everything to do with magazine design, excess space, case shape and length of the ammo. Some guns are prone to rimlock, and some aren't, regardless of the user or loading ability. It's no big mystery.

Unlike the Seecamp that was designed to work only with the Silvertip jhp the P32 was designed to be able to handle both the longer OAL fmj cartridge as well as the shorter jhp cartridge but that means it has more front toback space in the magazine making it more suseptible to rimlock with shorter jhp ammo.

Kel-Tec did come out with a shim to fill the the extra space in the back of the magazine.

The only problem is with the shim installed fmj ammo would not fit into the magazine.

There is an easy fix though, just carry an extra magazine without the shim installed for fmj.

 

[Ben86]

Kel-Tec did come out with a shim to fill the the extra space in the back of the magazine.

The only problem is with the shim installed fmj ammo would not fit into the magazine.

There is an easy fix though, just carry an extra magazine without the shim installed for fmj.

That sounds like an unimaginable thing to have to do to a gun you rely on for SD.

 

[kokapelli]

That sounds like an unimaginable thing to have to do to a gun you rely on for SD.

Not at all, it worked very well.

 

[gym]

It sounds like something you might contract in Bangkok. i never met anyone who complained about this rimlock subject before. Is it unique to small caliber semi auto rounds?
I have a 32 seacamp, I carry it as a bug, I know a couple who had to use them. They are only good close up maybe 5-7 feet, otherwise under preassure without a laser, because of the small barrel length and lack of sights, you are likelly to miss hitting a vital area. Maybe with a ppk's it would make more sense, but then you may as well use a 380, which I carried for almost 20 years in NYC. There are too many concepts that come into play here. One is you really want to keep distance "if you can" when in a gunfight. I will "back up" if I sense that something is about to happen and I am within a few feet of the threat. The problem with the seacamp type gun, is if you must get some more distance between you and the target, the gun is more difficult to get accurate shots off with, and it is not a smooth shooting pistol, it's a belly gun. All these "compromise guns" are exactlly that. So again if you want to protect yourself from someone sticking a knife in you while you are waiting for them to drop, a 32 is your gun. In an apartment in Brooklyn, a dear friend was forced to shoot a large woman running at him during a domestic disturbance with a butcher knife,with his 38, he had no choice and was cleared, but she knicked him anyway, and he got off 3 or 4,all hits, it's been a while since I thought about this one, before she fell on him. I just don't understand why anyone would pick a 32 over other better choices. Shot placement is great if you have time to place the shots, sometimes you have to draw and fire as fast as possible, hopefully never, but if you ever have the misfortune of having to do so, much of the technical stuff goes out the window, and it comes down to speed , awareness, and going against your natural moral fiber. No one "wants" to shoot anyone, and sometimes these discussions get too analytical instead of practical. Stay safe

 

[Manco]

This is a false comparison IMO. You're comparing an apple to an orange.

Compare a .32acp ball round to a .380acp ball round, and the .380 out penetrates the .32 while also making a bigger hole.

Your point is valid in and of itself, but would only be relevant if my intention were to compare the .32 ACP and .380 ACP calibers in the most general terms. However, that is not the case. I only meant to give a sense of perspective in expressing a preference for a certain type of load in a smaller caliber over a different type of load in even a larger caliber. This illustrates my view of the importance of bullet type, load selection, and penetration (it's not all about caliber or energy, but what you do with it and what the target requires).

In this case, the .32 ACP loads would out-penetrate the .380 ACP JHP loads, and I think that the popularity of the latter and the fact that it is larger and more powerful makes the comparison all the more interesting (i.e. choosing a more powerful caliber but a bullet type that makes it less effective). In fairness to .380 ACP, personally I would take .380 ACP ball rounds over either of these two other loads, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is not as interesting. Others who can shoot .32 ACP better, however, may have the opposite preference, and that's OK, too.

Comparing JHP to JHP, the .380 still out penetrates the .32 while also expanding to a MUCH larger diameter in the top designs (There is no Corbon DPX+P in .32acp)

That's true, too, but I wasn't trying to prove that .32 ACP was better than .380 ACP, which would require apples-to-apples comparisons to be fair. I was deliberately trying to find mismatched examples to show performance overlap in terms of terminal ballistics requirements for human targets.

 

[valorius]

I understand what you're saying.

A .32acp user who has some high performance FN 7.65mm jacketed flat nose ammo (such as the box sitting on the desk before me as i type) is definitely going to get deeper penetration than a .380 user packing hollowpoints.

But then, that is true of many self defense hollowpoints in most calibers. Most of them have designed penetration depths of about 12-15"

 

[Mp7]

From german wiki:

Vor, während und nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg gehörte die Walther PP in zahlreichen Ländern zur Polizei- und Behördenbewaffnung (..). Bei Militär gehörte sie als Offizierspistole zur Ordonnanzbewaffnung.

B4, during and after WW2 the PP was issued in numerous federal states for police. Military issued it to officers and their staff.

Wegen der terminalballistisch unbefriedigenden Leistung des meist für den Polizei- und Militärdienst verwendeten Kalibers 7,65 x 17 mm wurden die „Waltherchen“, wie sie von vielen Beamten des Polizeidienstes genannt wurden, nach 1972 aus dem deutschen Polizeidienst ausgesondert.

Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.

 

[kokapelli]

Rimlock has little to nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded. It has everything to do with magazine design, excess space, case shape and length of the ammo. Some guns are prone to rimlock, and some aren't, regardless of the user or loading ability. It's no big mystery.

Completely incorrect! Only one thing causes rim lock in 32 acp and that is the oversized rim on the cartridge.

If you used the exact same type of magazine in 45 acp or 9mm and with all different length cartridges you will not get rim lock because the cartridge rims on the 45 and 9 are larger diameters than the cartridge as the rim on the 32 acp cartridge is.

 

[PRM]

Lets see, from this and other threads, I've learned:

1. The caliber is really no good!

2. It will only bruise and infuriate an attacker!

3. It is not reliable as far as function!

4. They make good trot line sinkers!

With opinionated statements like that, I can understand why people don't want these guns. Guess I should be grateful for the negative rants, I got a super great deal on this one. So far I have shot around 300 rounds of various FMJ and hollow points with no malfunctions. It's even proved to be a little tack driver.

 

[usp9]

Completely incorrect! Only one thing causes rim lock in 32 acp and that is the oversized rim on the cartridge.

That's why I said "case shape". Read, then react.

If the rim were the only cause, then all .32acp pistols would have rimlock, but they don't, do they. Rimlock is a result of several events that cause the rounds to lock together. Some pistol mags work very reliably, the Walthers and Seecamps for example, while others can allow rimlock no matter how careful the mags are loaded... it simply doesn't matter. Some European ammo is less prone to rimlock, some American made is more prone... likely due to the shape of the lower case. It doesn't always matter whether the bullet was a larger round nose or a smaller HP. Some guns are prone, by poor design, to allow rimlock to occur. Most are fixable by either a magazine modification or a change of ammo, or both.

 

[Guns and more]

Like maybe multiple assailants or a much larger person who takes it away from you when it fails and either beats your head in with it or proceeds to empty the mag in your head.

If that's the case be happy you only have a .32. They may not kill you.

Now back to reality.

I don't know of anyone willing to take a .32 shot. For years it was what the cops carried.
My hesitation would be this. Why carry a .32 when there are .380's exactly the same size (or smaller)? Maybe some 9mm's too.
If I carried a .32, I'd use FMJ since I'd want penetration over expansion.

I won't buy a .32 because I don't want to keep yet another size ammo, but if someone gave me a Seecamp in .32 I'd be smilin'.

 

[kokapelli]

In these tests at The Box O" Truth The 380 clearly outperforms the 32 acp so what is the logic in using a 32 instead of a 380?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

 

[PRM]

The .380 out performs the .32
The 9mm out performs the .380
The .45 out performs the 9mm
The 44 magnum out performs the 45
The 12 guage out performs the 44 magnum
The high powered rifle can out perform a shotgun under certain parameters
A 105 MM trumps the above.........

All argumentative, and can take this to all kinds of extremes - the original post was about whether or not the .32 would do the job. Not what was better.

 

[Manco]

From german wiki:

Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.

I wonder what this means exactly, though. If it means that they expect the bullets to still be lethal after passing through hard barriers, then it is a valid criticism--.380 ACP and 9mm ball rounds certainly have a greater penetration margin than .32 ACP, and nobody is denying that. Most shootings are still just through clothing or nothing but air, however, and in these cases (which many people care about exclusively with regard to personal defense), there should be little difference in effectiveness between these calibers, especially before JHP bullets came into common use in 9mm pistols. The difference in bullet diameter is only 15%, and .32 ACP gets sufficient penetration even by modern standards, as long as it doesn't have to penetrate hard barriers first.

 

[easyg]

...the original post was about whether or not the .32 would do the job. Not what was better.

And the answer is:

The .32 MIGHT do the job.

But most likely it will fail to quickly stop a human aggressor.


Overall, the .32 is just too darn weak for me to trust my life to it.

 

[Manco]

In these tests at The Box O" Truth The 380 clearly outperforms the 32 acp

Well, first of all, that is an extremely poor testing methodology they're using, and they don't test many different loads, either. I'm not dissing or dismissing The Box O' Truth website as a whole because it has some excellent tests as well as a lot of interesting information, but I give absolutely no credence to their water jug tests (I guess they just don't "hold water" with me ).

so what is the logic in using a 32 instead of a 380?

People keep asking this question repeatedly, but regardless of the answer, the main question of this thread is whether .32 ACP is "respectable" for defense. In my opinion, anything that can penetrate the intended target sufficiently is respectable, so .32 ACP is (or can be with the right loads).

As for why not .380 ACP instead, maybe somebody shoots .32 ACP better. Those who scoff at such a notion should note that I feel little difference between 9mm and .40 S&W, and shake my head in confusion over those who think that .40 S&W has more recoil than even 10mm. I sure don't feel it, but at the same time, I have no right to question how others perceive things--I simply take them at their word. Pistols of the same size may also have an additional round or two of capacity with .32 ACP, which some might prefer over having a slightly larger round. There may be other reasons I can't think of at the moment.

 

[razorback2003]

Spotlighters use 22 rifles on deer. 22's work on deer when you hit them in the head.

I wouldn't mind a nice Seecamp 32 as a gun to carry when I couldn't hide anything else.

I have figured out ways to hide my 38 snub Airweight in all types of clothing...from suits to shorts. I have a pocket holster and ankle holster. With those two, I can carry my gun anywhere and no one knows. That snub goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. If I have a bad round, I squeeze again and it goes off on the next cylinder.

Most 32's I'd have a hard time trusting. They are fun to play with on the range. I do like the Seecamps. Those guns are fine craftsmanship. If you couldn't carry a snub, I'd carry a Seecamp and load it with quality ammo. It wouldn't be my first choice to conceal like my 38, but it is better than a 22 for a super hideout gun.

 

[PRM]

Well, first of all, that is an extremely poor testing methodology they're using, and they don't test many different loads, either. I'm not dissing or dismissing The Box O' Truth website as a whole because it has some excellent tests as well as a lot of interesting information, but I give absolutely no credence to their water jug tests (I guess they just don't "hold water" with me ).-Manco

Got to agree on your take with "Box of Truth," when you admit you had a squib load (defective round) ~ why would they flaunt that as a detrimental indictment of the caliber.

The gun had a weak report and the round was obviously a squib load.

It actually bounced off the blue jean material and only made a dent in it.

This is it.

I am obviously not going to be carrying any of that stuff for social purposes. ~ Box of Truth

Makes you wonder where the bias is? Would the author dis their caliber of choice because of a badly manufactured round. Seems the credibility issue is not in the round.

 

[Guns and more]

Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.

But I'll bet that they didn't go to 44 magnums, which have better terminal ballistics, so there are other factors involved.

 

[Ledgehammer]

I have keltec P32 with about 400 rds through it. Not one single failure of any kind.
That being said I load it with 73gr fiocchi round nose. Plus it holds 7. That's one round more than the .380.

Not long ago at one of our local bars there was a fight that spilled outside. One of he guys pulled out his .32 and shot the other from about 20 ft away. He hit the guy 6 times and he lived. He was done fighting after the first hit though.

I don't view my goal in a sd situation as killng anyone. I want to stop the attack. 7+1 from my p32 will do that. What's left I will handle by hand if necessary.

 

[kokapelli]

I have keltec P32 with about 400 rds through it. Not one single failure of any kind.
That being said I load it with 73gr fiocchi round nose. Plus it holds 7. That's one round more than the .380.

Not long ago at one of our local bars there was a fight that spilled outside. One of he guys pulled out his .32 and shot the other from about 20 ft away. He hit the guy 6 times and he lived. He was done fighting after the first hit though.

I don't view my goal in a sd situation as killng anyone. I want to stop the attack. 7+1 from my p32 will do that. What's left I will handle by hand if necessary.

I have the extended 7 round mags for my P-3AT.

 

[valorius]

Because of unsatisfactory terminal ballistics of the most used Caliber .32 the "lil Walther" as many called it, was taken from service after 1972.

It was the massacre at the Berlin olympics that caused the .32 to be discarded in favor of 9mm. It was that event that led directly to the design of both the HK P7 and the Sig Sauer P6, and the adoption of the 9mm parabellum as the standard police caliber in West Germany.

The problem with saying "My 8 .32s will stop an attack" is that you are discounting the other guy isn't going to sit there and just let you empty a mag into him. If he's got a knife, he's charging and stabbing the poo out of you while youre shooting him full of icepick holes. If he's got a gun, he's shooting back. Odds are he will have something bigger than you have.

You want to trade gun fire with your .32 when you're getting shot at by a .38spl or 9mm?

To me, a .380 with quality ammo and a good sighting system is a hell of a lot better defense vs a determined and armed attacker.

 

[Ledgehammer]

The .32 is easier to shoot accurately and I have a larger capacity.

We al know the knife weilding gorilla man lives in our nightmares mostly. Look I'm not talking about taking the .32 into battle with me but it will back somebody off and give me time to either run or a huge advantage when it comes to hand to hand. If somebody is close enough to stab me I'm sure I can hit them with a full mag of .32 acp and the get to safety. The gun is only one part of my SD training

no I don't want to go against a 38 or 9mm with my .32, but I wouldn't want to with a .380 either. Neither of those calibers are gunfight guns.

 

[valorius]

Knife wielding guerrilla men grow on trees in my city, unfortunately.