Can a tourist shoot a gun in the USA/FL ?

[eric.cartman]

Hi!
So here's the deal: my father in law is in town from Poland (on a tourist visa) and I want to take him shooting. I called Rivier Range in Pompano Beach, and they said he can shoot there with me, just have him bring his passport for ID.

Then I got a post on FSN: http://www.floridashootersnetwork.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=65489 and some guy claims he can't.

Does anyone know if he can or can not legally shoot here with me??? I can't seam to find any laws about that. I also want to take him to Markham Park here in FL and don't want to make the trip only to be told to get lost. I did take my wife to M.P. to shoot when she was on a student visa, no problem there, but that was few years ago.

Help!!!

 

[highorder]

I don't know about Florida, But I took a Brit and a Dane to the S&W Academy in Springfield Mass. With $30 and a picture ID (passport) we all took turns with: M10, M&P45, 629, M41 and a 5" 1911.

They LOVED it.

It was also cool to see a Brit that had never seen a handgun shooting bullseyes with the M&P.

 

[Deanimator]

Range visits for Japanese tourists are a major industry in Hawaii. And they pay through the nose for the privilege too. The ranges clean up on range, rental and ammunition fees.

 

[hso]

Perfectly all right.

 

[kanook]

Call the store back and ask the Manager.

People come from other countries and hunt here in FL and not all of them bring a firearm.

 

[Hoxviii]

It's kinda iffy. By the letter of the law non-immigrant aliens that are in the country under 180 days cannot possess a firearm or ammunition unless they came here specifically for hunting or sporting purposes. How do you define "possess"? Well, in the case of a felon the Gov defines touching as possession. . .

Look in Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922 (y)(2). There's a lot to it, but it boils down to if you are in possession of a hunting license or permit, you're good to go. Which you *can* get on a tourist basis. You're also good if you are a foreign official or have a certification in your home country or get approval from the state department.

To the letter of the law, no, he can't shoot.

But I've taken foreigners to ranges before, private and government run. It depends on who is running the counter and what the specific store policy is, and the overall appearance of the foreigner. If they look respectable, you probably won't get much guff.

Excerpt, emphasis added.

(2) Exceptions.--Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is--
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B) an official representative of a foreign government who
is--
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the
Government's mission to an international organization having
its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii) en route to or from another country to which that
alien is accredited;

(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished
foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of
State; or
(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign
government entering the United States on official law
enforcement business.

(3) Waiver.--
(A) Conditions for waiver.--Any individual who has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa may
receive a waiver from the requirements of subsection (g)(5),
if--
(i) the individual submits to the Attorney General a
petition that meets the requirements of subparagraph (C);
and
(ii) the Attorney General approves the petition.

(B) Petition.--Each petition under subparagraph (B) shall--
(i) demonstrate that the petitioner has resided in the
United States for a continuous period of not less than 180
days before the date on which the petition is submitted
under this paragraph; and
(ii) include a written statement from the embassy or
consulate of the petitioner, authorizing the petitioner to
acquire a firearm or ammunition and certifying that the
alien would not, absent the application of subsection
(g)(5)(B), otherwise be prohibited from such acquisition
under subsection (g).

(C) Approval of petition.--The Attorney General shall
approve a petition submitted in accordance with this paragraph,
if the Attorney General determines that waiving the requirements
of subsection (g)(5)(B) with respect to the petitioner--
(i) would be in the interests of justice; and
(ii) would not jeopardize the public safety.

 

[General Geoff]

I wonder how many people visit the United States, with range time as a priority activity?

 

[eric.cartman]

Well I called up Markham Park and they said it's all good, as long as he brings his ID/Passport with the visa in it.

W00T!!!

 

[Deus Machina]

Just make sure to get him shooting some properly-sized semi-auto and bolt-action stuff. I hear about so many tourists leaving the US and telling stories about how everything over here is .50 caliber and/or fully automatic, because they went to the tourist-based ranges and never actually saw anything an American brought with them.

 

[eric.cartman]

Deus,
He'll be shooting my: Glock 19, XDM 40, S&A 1911, AR-15, Saiga 12, and Tikka T3... at least. Possibly other guns I have.
He shall be properly exposed to firearms

Oh, did I mention that he sued to be a gunsmith in the Polish army many years ago

 

[everallm]

Thingster

Your reading the law wrong I'm afraid you're in the section about taking ownership and exclusive possession of a firearm

The issue at hand is NOT about the purchase, ownership and exclusive possession of firearms and IS about the casual usage of said.

Eric goes to the range or any other legal place of shooting with his father and allows him to shoot with Eric's firearms LEGAL

Eric's father goes on his own to a range and rents a firearm to shoot at the range LEGAL

Eric's father takes Eric's firearms WITHOUT Eric and goes shooting ILLEGAL

In the first two the firearms are and remain in the exclusive possession and control of the owner even if the non owner is using them.

In the last the firearm is NOT in the exclusive possession and control of the owner and is illegal

 

[Hoxviii]

Everywhere else the law talks about possession, not necessarily taking ownership of. That's why i made the statement in regards to how would one define posession. According to the ATF and most (all?) states, casual contact is possession if you're talking about a prohibited person.

 

[KyJim]

According to the ATF and most (all?) states, casual contact is possession if you're talking about a prohibited person.

This brings up an interesting question. Assuming someone is here on a legal visa, all of our fundamental rights normally apply to them: freedom of religion, free speech, right to a jury trial, etc. That's one reason we held all the terrorists at Guantanimo Bay. Now that Heller has determined the right to own/possess firearms is an individual right, could someone be prosecuted simply for temporarily "possessing" a firearm, say to shoot a friend's gun at the range? Can the Attorney General refuse to approve the petition mentioned in Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922 (y)(2)?

 

[everallm]

Sorry Thingster, your view is wrong, in the eyes of the law, use, possession and ownership are all very different items.

In addition being a tourist does NOT make you a prohibited person when it comes to the use of a firearm with the examples provided above.

The examples I gave you are how it is in the eyes of the law.

Ky,

As with Thingster you are looking at two very different beasts.

The law he has quoted has NOTHING to do with the question asked by the OP

Casual use is NOT ownership, it is NOT possession where, as I stated there is supervision by the ACTUAL owner or their designated representative.

In fact the way the law is currently written a tourist has greater potential legal access to firearms than a US citizen with a misdemeanor domestic violence conviction. AKS Lautenberg

 

[Erik]

In my opinion Thingster is correct, in absent meeting an enumerated exception, aliens are prohibited persons and as such cannot possess firearms and ammunition.

That said, do many aliens as prohibited persons, absent other legal trouble, face prosecution or removal from the US for handling weapons, visiting ranges, and other non-hunting o rcompetition related firearms tourism? No. Which is not to say that it cannot or does not happen. Very important: Do not confuse "happens all the time" and "LEOs and prosecutors don't normally care" with "legal."

 

[GRIZ22]

could someone be prosecuted simply for temporarily "possessing" a firearm, say to shoot a friend's gun at the range?

You can even shoot your friend's gun in NJ.

Back to the OP's question. I'm sure rental ranges researched this issue before they started renting. Apparently,

admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes

means recreational shooting is a lawful...sporting purpose.

State laws may say something else.

 

[Noveldoc]

I am in AL. We regularly have foreign vistors at our range. A few of them rent but most come with a US friend and use his guns.

Had an interesting time when I let a young visiting German who was a helluva pistol shot fire my Garand. He burned up a clip and said maybe that was why we won the war.

Tom

 

[no stinking badges]

Have fun...

From what I've been told, by lawyers, and read, from law, and since you own the guns and are buying the ammo and you are on private property and all legal distances are kept from infringing on others rights; it is not illegal to let someone else shoot your guns so long they are of proper age and are mentally capable. This is void where prohibitive by law.

Egad, I'm starting to sound like some of the stuff I'm reading. :banghead:

 

[BruiseLee]

Japanese tourist shoot here all the time, and I'm in California!

 

[GooseGestapo]

Reading, re-reading, and re-re-reading the statute, It seems that if he has a visa, and passport, AND purchases a hunting license (a non-resident alien can purchase a one day non-resident hunting license) which would render the statute moot. To my knowledge, the State Dept. doesn't issue a Visa that stipulates "hunting or fishing". Just a valid visa with a time duration. And if he over-stays his visa, it might take them a year or two to get around to deporting him. Ask me how I know; then again, don't.......

Take him shooting. Just don't let him shoot somebody..........!
Law only becomes pertinent if someone gets hurt or a complaint is made. Don't vandalize the range. Be responsible and you won't have any problems. That is if you CAN be responsible. It's beyond the intelligence and inclination of some people. Just go look at most public ranges. Some think that just because it's a "range", it's the same as a dump or public landfill.....(NOT!)

Use that uncommon thing called "common sense".

 

[444]

There are a number of ranges here that cater to tourists with machinegun rentals. They advertise with billboards all over town. I am fairly sure they make most of their money on these rentals.

I have also taken a formal training class with a guy from Germany who was just a tourist (not military or law enforcement) who just wanted to spend a couple days shooting an M16.

 

[dec41971]

I saw a bunch of foreign guys come on the range with no escort. They were in Diplomatic vehicles with no chaparones as far as I can tell. They were giggling like little girls since they probably cant touch a gun back in their country. I asked to be assigned a lane far from all those excited noobs of course. Only in the USA really rings true. We are really a unique country in so many respects. Oh did I mention I see LEOs there shooting and making small talk all the time? Believe me if it weren't legal, they wouldn't have rent them the guns to do it. They have access to the State Police by phone 100% of the business hours even on weekends, and I have gone to trade a gun and the guy got on the phone with State Police to ask them questions about what the rules were and if it was ok. And I am talking 4473 (Is that its name?) form here, just general is this and that ok, and can this and that... type questions.

 

[HKrazy]

Under federal law, just handing someone a firearm to shoot, does not transfer possession of that firearm.

As long as the firearm remains under control of the original owner, anyone who is not a prohibited person, may shoot the gun.

There is a slight point of confusion here because while a tourist can not buy a gun, they are not automatically a prohibited person.

Even if you own an NFA firearm, like a machine gun, you can let anyone, including a foreign citizen, shoot the gun as long as it remains under your control. That is how machine gun rental ranges operate. They won't rent you the gun to take home for the weekend, but you can shoot all the ammo you can afford at their range where they remain in possession and control.

The hunting license requirement for foreigners only applies if they intend to posses and keep a gun. i.e. bring a rifle from their country of residence and keep it with them full time.


I am fortunate enough to own NFA weapons and one of the highlights of ownership is taking foreigners, who often can't even own regular guns, out to the range to shoot a machine gun. They always have a good time and it changes the perception they have been taught by the foreign media that America is full of gun toting yee ha types to an understanding that we are just normal people who are fortunate enough to live in a country who allows it's citizens a certain degree of freedom. I always follow proper safety protocol, so a range session with me is anything but yee ha.

The last Brit I took machine gunning commented after the session that most NFA weapons owners must be highly ethical people with little chance of committing criminal acts. I agreed and pointed out that virtually no legally registered machine guns have ever been used in a crime by their owners.

Wether regular firearms or NFA weapons, it is a priceless chance to show a foreigner what America is really all about, not he BS they have been told by haters and the liberal media back home. Take a foreigner shooting any chance you get.

 

[444]

You don't even have to be a citizen to buy and own NFA weapons. Or any other guns for that matter.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Under federal law, just handing someone a firearm to shoot, does not transfer possession of that firearm.

As long as the firearm remains under control of the original owner, anyone who is not a prohibited person, may shoot the gun.

There is a slight point of confusion here because while a tourist can not buy a gun, they are not automatically a prohibited person.

Respectfully, your statement makes no sense at all. 18 USC 922:

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

(2) is a fugitive from justice;

(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));

(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

(5) who, being an alien—

(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or

(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));

(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

IT'S ALL IN THE SAME SECTION OF THE STATUTE! So how can a felon be an "automatic prohibited person" and an alien under a nonimmigrant visa not be an "automatic prohibited person" when they are listed in the same section? How can you not hand a felon a gun, but hand a nonimmigrant alien a gun to shoot, when it is all in the same statute?