Can anyone explain why 92 barrels seem off centered?

[eazyrider]

So I posted about my WC 92 having a barrel that was off centered a while ago, over a year ago in fact, and just about everyone said it was normal and not a problem. They were right. The gun is ridiculously accurate and I have had no issues whatsoever in over 5,000 rounds. But I want to know why this happens. How does it not affect accuracy? I also remember someone saying that the reason you hear about this more on the 92 is because you can see the barrel so much better than on other designs and that many of those barrels would be off as well.

So, can anyone help me get my head around on this? Again, I now know it doesn't affect the gun but still makes me wonder.

 

[jhb]

pics? thanks.

 

[tarosean]

Because this is a 92 at lockup. The slide doesn't factor into it. Unlike your typical Browning tilting barrel action that 98% of other pistols employ. using the slide to help lock the barrel in place.

 

[1KPerDay]

The locking block locks into the slide... doesn't that affect barrel lockup? Also "accurized" berettas have muzzle bushings... so it seems there is some potential affect there.

 

[9mmepiphany]

But I want to know why this happens. How does it not affect accuracy?

So, can anyone help me get my head around on this? Again, I now know it doesn't affect the gun but still makes me wonder.

A better question, since you've already proven to yourself that the Beretta is accurate, might be, "Why should a centered barrel be more accurate?"

As long as the barrel assembly locks up consistently after each shot, where the barrel is shouldn't matter as long as it wasn't designed to lockup into the slide. This is just one of the differences between a tilting barrel locking system and a non-tilting barrel system.

The other common non-tilting barrel pistol, using the dropping locking block, is the Walther P38. You just can't tell if the barrel is centered or not as the slide stops well short of the muzzle

 

[eazyrider]

A better question, since you've already proven to yourself that the Beretta is accurate, might be, "Why should a centered barrel be more accurate?"

As long as the barrel assembly locks up consistently after each shot, where the barrel is shouldn't matter as long as it wasn't designed to lockup into the slide. This is just one of the differences between a tilting barrel locking system and a non-tilting barrel system.

The other common non-tilting barrel pistol, using the dropping locking block, is the Walther P38. You just can't tell if the barrel is centered or not as the slide stops well short of the muzzle

I guess it's just the visual. It just seems like it should affect it.

 

[eazyrider]

The locking block locks into the slide... doesn't that affect barrel lockup? Also "accurized" berettas have muzzle bushings... so it seems there is some potential affect there.

I've seen that too but I honestly don't know how much more accurate I could make mine. It's really something.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I guess it's just the visual. It just seems like it should affect it.

It always reminds me of the time I discovered that while the front of the barrel is centered pretty well in a 1911, it isn't parallel with the slide...it points slightly downwards

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've seen that too but I honestly don't know how much more accurate I could make mine.

If you were trying to hold a 2" group at 50 yards, you'd likely see a difference between a 92 with and without a bushing locating the front of the barrel in the slide

 

[eazyrider]

If you were trying to hold a 2" group at 50 yards, you'd likely see a difference between a 92 with and without a bushing locating the front of the barrel in the slide

Probably, but I doubt I'll be doing much of that, lol!

 

[.455_Hunter]

+1000 on the Type M!!!

 

[Mizar]

The barrel is off centered by purpose - it's a simple clearance for the slide to not rub on the barrel thus ruining the finish and leaving nasty gouges on it, and for dealing with grime and fouling. Since the barrel is supported on two points by the frame it's more than an adequate decision for a service type pistol.

Best,
Boris

 

[Drail]

As long as the sights are fixed on the same point that the barrel is aligned with - it will be accurate. Removing any play between the barrel and slide will get you that last 5 % of the maximum accuracy potential of the gun but most shooters cannot really take advantage of that small increase. Berettas are not designed with accuracy as the most important important factor - reliability is given more attention. I have never been a huge fan of the Beretta design primarily because they chose to run the trigger linkage along the OUTSIDE of the frame. It is possible to fire a Beretta without even touching the trigger. No thanks.

 

[BSA1]

I have never been a huge fan of the Beretta design primarily because they chose to run the trigger linkage along the OUTSIDE of the frame. It is possible to fire a Beretta without even touching the trigger.

How?

Please show actual demonstration.

 

[tarosean]

I have never been a huge fan of the Beretta design primarily because they chose to run the trigger linkage along the OUTSIDE of the frame. It is possible to fire a Beretta without even touching the trigger.

How?

Please show actual demonstration.

It is possible to pry the trigger bar forward with the hammer cocked (SA).. Still takes quite a bit of force in SA, probably take a pry bar in DA.

Bone stock 92FS

 

[Drail]

During WW ll U.S. soldiers in the Pacific Theater were finding Japanese Nambus with the trigger linkage mounted outside of the frame. There were enough accidents with these guns that an official order was issued that U.S. soldiers finding these guns were NOT to touch them and blow them in place. Placing the linkage inside is a much better idea - it needs to be protected. Look at Browning's High Power design. To get the trigger linkage around the double stack magazine he used levers to move the whole linkage up inside the slide over the magazine and back down to the sear. He could have run the linkage outside but he didn't. Pretty good engineering.

 

[BSA1]

I notice that in the video the gun is cocked for single action mode.

So I have to take a tool such a piece of dowel rod or in the case of the video a ink pin that is small enough to fit the space between the top of the trigger bar and slide, lay the gun on hard flat surface, cock the hammer back to single action mode and push hard forward on the trigger bar to cause the trigger to move backwards until it releases.

Exactly how is this problem under normal or hard use such as competition or combat?

Can this be done when the hammer is down in double action mode?

And when the slide safety is on?

The fact that I can take a tool and abuse a firearm enough to cause something to happen doesn't mean it has a design flaw or unsafe.

Heck just give me a hammer and a 1911 without the firing pin block.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have never been a huge fan of the Beretta design primarily because they chose to run the trigger linkage along the OUTSIDE of the frame. It is possible to fire a Beretta without even touching the trigger. No thanks.

You have to make a very conscious effort to do that. "Accidentally" pulling the trigger is infinitely more probable then somehow getting something hooked behind the beveled bar with enough lateral pressure to keep it there while pushing the gun forward. So unlikely is it that I seriously doubt you could find a single case of a 92 being legitimately accidentally discharged in this manner.

Among the reasons a person could dislike the 92, that one ranks as most ridiculous.

 

[tarosean]

The fact that I can take a tool and abuse a firearm enough to cause something to happen doesn't mean it has a design flaw or unsafe.

pretty much...
I was bending the plastic pen to get it to fire in SA mode. I could not get it to budge in DA mode with the pen. In summary, I dont think it would ever happen in routine operations of any type.
I was just curious to see if it could in fact, be done. So I got an extra set of hands and shot the video.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I have never been a huge fan of the Beretta design primarily because they chose to run the trigger linkage along the OUTSIDE of the frame. It is possible to fire a Beretta without even touching the trigger. No thanks.

During WW ll U.S. soldiers in the Pacific Theater were finding Japanese Nambus with the trigger linkage mounted outside of the frame

Linking a design flaw of a WWII Japanese pistol and the Beretta design is quite a stretch. Condemning all Nambu pistols with a design feature of just one model (Type 94) is painting with quite a broad brush also.

Type 94 (for NCOs and armor crews)

Type 14 (for officers)

In any case the placement of the linkage has less to do with the accidental discharges than the linkage design. The Type 94 could release it's hammer if (1) the hammer was cocked and (2) if the front of the trigger bar, which pivots on a pin, was depressed (about 2mm) into the frame. The linkage of the Beretta has to be forced forwarded to disengage the hammer from the sear. The leverage and force required are quite different.

The "knock" on the M9's external linkage has been that it could become fouled with dirt and unable to release the sear/hammer...this concern has proven mostly baseless

 

[Drail]

OK. Lot of Beretta fans here. Enjoy them.

 

[MachIVshooter]

OK. Lot of Beretta fans here. Enjoy them.

Being a fan (or not) has nothing to do with recognizing that condemnation of a design over a perceived "flaw" which cannot cause a problem under any conceivable normal use of the implement is absurd. The 92 has been around for 45 years and in service with the US Military for 32, millions made, and I have never heard even through the grapevine of this "flaw" resulting in an AD. Have you?

You could have said the grip is unnecessarily large. You could have a beef with the exposed barrel. Dislike the safety/decocker location. Hate the long DA trigger pull. Cite the fact that the locking block sometimes fails. But of all the legitimate detractors which exist, you choose one for which not even the vast reaches of the internet can turn up a single case of it ever resulting in an AD.