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Can cities legally order gun shops to close?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Browning, Mar 21, 2020.

  1. Browning

    Browning Member

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  2. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I suspect it varies from state to state. From what I can tell, the Governor of PA can limit firearm & ammunition sales during a state of emergency. I don't know if that power extends to city governments.
     
  3. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    Waiting-out that very question at this moment. Will I work this week or not???
     
  4. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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  5. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Not in Arizona. Thanks to the Arizona Citizens Defense League that got a law passed forbidding cities from infringing on 2A in emergencies.
     
  6. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    There are a whole lot of variables that go into answering that question. Under what authority is it done? How is the statute written? Was the store given Due Process? If pre-deprivation Due Process wasn't given, will post-deprivation Due Process be?
     
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  7. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    What is the definition of "essential" or who came up the the term?? Seems like a arbitrary definition when it comes to "guns"

    To me it is like what is a high capacity magazine. How was a magic number of 10 arrived at.??

    Around here our State, County , City is supposed to be "locked down" with only essential places open. Everything other than restaurants and bars are doing business??
     
  8. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    At the federal level the Surgeon General has very broad powers (42 USC 264):

    State law could grant similar powers to a state agency, and finding out would involve State-by-State research.

    Enforcement would raise constitutional questions, at least under Due Process. So opining on the scope and limits of such powers would involve a review of relevant case law.
     
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  9. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Sure I get that.

    I’ve just always heard whenever they suspend gun and ammunition sales that it came at the state level rather than from individual cities.
     
  10. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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  11. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Just working with the words on the page you shared, I should think that restricting the 2nd amendment based on that section would not hold up in court. I'm not sure how a reasonable person could connect spread of a virus with a firearm.
     
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  12. sparkyv

    sparkyv Member

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    We all know that it's not about saving lives (or stopping the spread of disease), it's about CONTROL.
     
  13. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Really now? That what you get out of the law and current events?

    Of course the spread of disease is not connected with guns. But it is connected with people being in places in close proximity to other people. As described by the CDC, isolation is an important part of efforts to control the disease.

    So it's not about guns. It's about closing, to the extent reasonably feasible, retail businesses and other places where people may congregate.

    And exactly what do you base that conclusion? What verifiable, credible evidence can you provide to support your conjecture?

    Closing, to the extent reasonably feasible, retail businesses and other places where people may congregate is very much about limiting the spread of the disease (and saving lives).
     
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  14. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Each state is going to have a different way of closing down locations where disease spread is likely to occur. Jefferson county, in my state, used the department of health to close down non essential businesses. In rather small gun stores, you cannot always maintain 6 feet of distance away from another person. This is an interesting question as this isn't just happening in one area, several metro cities and counties have done their own legal lingo to close down gun shops.
     
  15. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    I have a difficult time taking my government's word at face value when, in my city, retail pot shops are deemed essential services and allowed to remain open, yet FFLs are ordered to close.

    While I agree with the concept of isolation, and I don't oppose the lockdown orders, I would argue that...

    A.) According to the Surgeon General's remarks, not enough people, especially young people, are taking these orders seriously, so they are of limited effect or usefulness...

    B.) Said orders are destroying our economy, and...

    C.) Our government is using this very legitimate crisis to further its end goal of eroding the rights of the people.
     
  16. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    1. Around here most marijuana shops are delivery only. I don't know how things work where you are.

      But remember I said, "Closing, to the extent reasonably feasible, retail businesses...." That is a judgment call. At the end of the day, whether the judgment was exercised well or poorly will be decided based on results.

    2. So if not enough people are taking the isolation orders seriously, that's good reason for more people to not take them seriously?

    3. So allowing the pandemic to rage uncontrolled and abandoning efforts to contain the spread of the virus will help our economy?

    4. And yes it is a real crisis, and unfortunately addressing it in a way best calculated to contain the crisis and get through it will result curtailing certain freedom of choice and action in the near term. What's your plan?
     
  17. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    <-----I strongly disagree.
    I'm a kitchen table FFL and the stay in place or shelter at home orders in Texas apply to ALL BUSINESSES in the area they are issued. They aren't singling out gun dealers for goodness sakes.

    While I'll remain open and continue to do transfers, I'll shut down when my city or county require it. I'm wearing a mask, disinfecting surfaces often and ask customers to wear a a mask as well.

    "about CONTROL"!!!!!...........pffffft.....thats just silly.
     
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  18. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I don’t think it’s too big of a leap to think that people who believe that owning guns is both evil and an incredibly bad idea would use a crisis to halt people from buying guns and ammunition and carrying arms.

    At any rate, they’re doing it.

    http://www.nola.gov/mayor/executive...tion-of-a-state-of-emergency-due-to-covid-19/

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...owing-ban-on-sale-transportation-of-firearms/

    https://kmph.com/news/local/fresnos...to-gun-sales-alcohol-sales-other-broad-powers

    So four cities in four states have taken steps to at least temporarily halt sales and close gun shops. Could be more, those are just the ones I’ve heard of. I’m just wondering if it is in fact legal and if they can be successfully sued for this afterwards.
     
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  19. sparkyv

    sparkyv Member

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    I agree to not congregate at this time, but there are ways to mitigate exposure while allowing businesses to remain open. The same way that is being done in pharmacies, grocery stores, liquor stores, convenience stores, gun shops in this state, and others.
     
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  20. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    We won't really be able to figure out how effective those strategies for mitigating exposure were until this is over. In any event, the most effective way to "mitigate" exposure is to avoid it. That argues in favor of closing businesses that aren't essential.

    Without alternate ways to assure that folks have food, medicine, and medical supplies at least grocery stores, pharmacies, and convenience stores will need to remain accessible.Many other things people might need might be available through on-line sources.

    For the duration things are not "business as usual."
     
  21. sparkyv

    sparkyv Member

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    I work in an "essential" business sector, and for now, it is indeed business as usual. The medical and janitorial fields are only two of several that are doing more business than usual, in fact they're hiring. There are proven, proper, and safe ways to keep people healthy while keeping businesses running.


    This sheriff wants to shut down gun stores because he doesn't want newbies to shoot someone in their home. Tell me how this is about preventing the spread of a virus. Respectfully, tell me this isn't about CONTROL.
    https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-...-close-amid-coronavirus-restrictions-sheriff/
     
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  22. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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  23. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    The only way to stop the spread of the virus is by a complete shutdown of all businesses, manufacturers, schools, etc. and a 24 hour 7 days a week stay-in-place order on all people. The deaths that result from starvation and other medical diseases will be a acceptable trade-off.

    Researchers may have found a better way to control the spread of the virus. They have discovered that the Corona 19 is a “cluster” disease. Cluster means the disease is first spread among family members that live together before being spread outside of the home. What it means is it is more effective to quarantine all members of family when one gets sick rather than quarantining the entire general population.

    So if John Smith gets sick then everyone that is living in the Smith household regardless if they are sick or well is quarantined. No one in the Jones family is sick so they are allowed to go about their lives as usual.

    The current plan is ineffective and is placing huge financial burdens on many people. It is difficult to understand why educated folks are reacting in fear of this virus. Maybe it is from watching too many zombie TV shows and movies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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  24. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Limiting reasons people have to leave home by reducing the number of places people have to go to if they do leave home, mitigates contact and exposure.
     
  25. Browning

    Browning Member

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    So no legal discussion on cities and their role in closing gun stores, we'll talk about Clovid 19 and the response instead.
     
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