I live in OH, I might look to purchase a rifle from an individual who lives in KY. I know OH has the adjoining state law if I drive to a gun store and purchase it that way, I'm wondering can I have the guy who lives in KY ship the rifle directly to me or do I have to use an FFL, or am I able to do a FTF transaction with him? Thanks.
Can I buy a rifle from a private party if he lives in KY, I'm in OH
- Thread starter aw091486
- Start date
- Status
Hoxviii
Member
To ship it you have to go through an FFL.
Other than that, I don't know if Ohio has any sort of regulations on FTF transactions.
Other than that, I don't know if Ohio has any sort of regulations on FTF transactions.
waterhouse
Member
He would need to ship it to your FFL. Also, you cannot drive across state lines to meet him and buy the gun face to face. You may only buy guns in another state from a dealer.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
You could also make a transfer through a local FFL in Kentucky if you went there instead of shipping.
JoefromTN
Member
I'm not sure these guys gave you the right info.
I don't believe there is any Federal regulations against the private sale/transfer of any gun from one private citizen to another, regardless of what state you reside in and where the transaction takes place. In fact, you can even purchase a gun from a dealer in another state, as long as the gun is then transferred to you, through a dealer in your home state.
Now having said that, understand that I am referring to a face to face transfer, where you go there, buy it, then take it home with you. If you sent him the payment and wanted him to send you the gun, then yes, the whole transaction would have to go through a dealer on BOTH ends of the transaction.
Now, state laws, might be another matter altogether, and that, you would have to check with OH and KY on.
Here's a couple of examples that highlight my points;
A guy I once knew, whose Dad lives in NY state, he lives in TN, was visiting at his Dad's home The Dad handed him his Ruger .41 caliber Redhawk, which he didn't use anymore, and told the guy to take it home with him. He thanked him, and did take it home.
When the guy's brother, who lives in NY near their Dad found out about it, he was concerned that it wasn't a legal "transfer". The TN brother checked it out with the BATFE and they told him that he hadn't broken any Federal laws. However, the state of NY has VERY strict transfer laws on handguns and their pistol permit procedures are a backdoor registration scheme. (How NY has gotten away with this for so many years is beyond me!) The NY brother had that same pistol, (and in fact, all of the Dad's pistols), listed on his own permit, so that when Dad passes away, he can take possession of the Dad's guns without having to forfeit them to the state. So, if that pistol was going to be in his brother's possession in TN, then the NY brother wanted to get that pistol off his own permit. The only way to do so, would be to go to the pistol permit office, (ya know, those communists in the government office at the county courthouse), and show them a LEGAL disposition of that handgun, so that it could be removed from the NY brother's permit.
The TN brother told him not to worry about it, when Dad dies, just turn in his permit, (or just throw it away!), and when they ask what happened to the Ruger, just tell them to go dig Dad up and ask him! LOL. The NY brother didn't see the humor in that, he still lives in NY and has to abide by their laws!
So, a few months later, when the TN brother made another trip to his Dad's house, he took the pistol home, the Dad took it to a dealer, paid to transfer the gun to that dealer, who then sent it to a local dealer in TN, where the TN brother paid for the transfer back to himself. ALL of this just to satisfy "state law" in NY, as they had not broken any Federal laws to start with.
On another occasion, the Dad gave the TN brother's son, a shotgun that once belonged to the two brother's younger sister, who passed away in 1994. They carried that shotgun home to TN and that was a legal transfer by Federal law, but still, although NY doesn't know about it because they have no backdoor registration schemes on long guns, it was an illegal transfer by NY state law. In fact, by NY state law, NO GUN may cross the NY state line, in or out of the state, without that transfer being recorded by, and going through an FFL dealer. So, with that gun transfer, they haven't broken any Federal law, only NY state law and who gives a crap about that, once you're in TN?
Another friend of mine is in nearly the same boat now. His Dad resided in NJ before he passed away. My friend's Mother still resides there and she has, in her possession, several guns, both long and pistols, that had belonged to her husband. My friend wants to go get those guns, which by all Federal law he has the right to do, but NJ state laws are very much like NY's. He would have to have each and every one of those guns transferred to him in TN through dealers on both ends. That's pretty costly, just to satisfy state laws for a state that he doesn't even reside in. He normally flies back and forth to NJ for visits but he can't bring the guns out on a plane without having proper documentation from the state for the transfers. So, he is considering renting a car, driving to NJ, and then driving the guns out of the state. He will have broken no federal laws, since he has every lawful right to take possession of his Father's guns, but he will be violating NJ state law when he removes those guns from the state without going through a dealer.
So, bottom line is, I don't think that there are any Federal laws against a normal gun transfer across state lines, as long as it is a "normal" transfer without any criminal intent, or as long as you're not moving guns across state lines to "traffic" them, (that's a legal term that would have to be proven in court, that you were "dealing" guns across state lines without an FFL). However, when bringing a gun across state lines, INTO the state where you reside, I would be sure to be in compliance with your local state laws.
If I'm wrong about any of this, I would hope that someone would point me in the right direction, where I can reference the appropriate laws.
I don't believe there is any Federal regulations against the private sale/transfer of any gun from one private citizen to another, regardless of what state you reside in and where the transaction takes place. In fact, you can even purchase a gun from a dealer in another state, as long as the gun is then transferred to you, through a dealer in your home state.
Now having said that, understand that I am referring to a face to face transfer, where you go there, buy it, then take it home with you. If you sent him the payment and wanted him to send you the gun, then yes, the whole transaction would have to go through a dealer on BOTH ends of the transaction.
Now, state laws, might be another matter altogether, and that, you would have to check with OH and KY on.
Here's a couple of examples that highlight my points;
A guy I once knew, whose Dad lives in NY state, he lives in TN, was visiting at his Dad's home The Dad handed him his Ruger .41 caliber Redhawk, which he didn't use anymore, and told the guy to take it home with him. He thanked him, and did take it home.
When the guy's brother, who lives in NY near their Dad found out about it, he was concerned that it wasn't a legal "transfer". The TN brother checked it out with the BATFE and they told him that he hadn't broken any Federal laws. However, the state of NY has VERY strict transfer laws on handguns and their pistol permit procedures are a backdoor registration scheme. (How NY has gotten away with this for so many years is beyond me!) The NY brother had that same pistol, (and in fact, all of the Dad's pistols), listed on his own permit, so that when Dad passes away, he can take possession of the Dad's guns without having to forfeit them to the state. So, if that pistol was going to be in his brother's possession in TN, then the NY brother wanted to get that pistol off his own permit. The only way to do so, would be to go to the pistol permit office, (ya know, those communists in the government office at the county courthouse), and show them a LEGAL disposition of that handgun, so that it could be removed from the NY brother's permit.
The TN brother told him not to worry about it, when Dad dies, just turn in his permit, (or just throw it away!), and when they ask what happened to the Ruger, just tell them to go dig Dad up and ask him! LOL. The NY brother didn't see the humor in that, he still lives in NY and has to abide by their laws!
So, a few months later, when the TN brother made another trip to his Dad's house, he took the pistol home, the Dad took it to a dealer, paid to transfer the gun to that dealer, who then sent it to a local dealer in TN, where the TN brother paid for the transfer back to himself. ALL of this just to satisfy "state law" in NY, as they had not broken any Federal laws to start with.
On another occasion, the Dad gave the TN brother's son, a shotgun that once belonged to the two brother's younger sister, who passed away in 1994. They carried that shotgun home to TN and that was a legal transfer by Federal law, but still, although NY doesn't know about it because they have no backdoor registration schemes on long guns, it was an illegal transfer by NY state law. In fact, by NY state law, NO GUN may cross the NY state line, in or out of the state, without that transfer being recorded by, and going through an FFL dealer. So, with that gun transfer, they haven't broken any Federal law, only NY state law and who gives a crap about that, once you're in TN?
Another friend of mine is in nearly the same boat now. His Dad resided in NJ before he passed away. My friend's Mother still resides there and she has, in her possession, several guns, both long and pistols, that had belonged to her husband. My friend wants to go get those guns, which by all Federal law he has the right to do, but NJ state laws are very much like NY's. He would have to have each and every one of those guns transferred to him in TN through dealers on both ends. That's pretty costly, just to satisfy state laws for a state that he doesn't even reside in. He normally flies back and forth to NJ for visits but he can't bring the guns out on a plane without having proper documentation from the state for the transfers. So, he is considering renting a car, driving to NJ, and then driving the guns out of the state. He will have broken no federal laws, since he has every lawful right to take possession of his Father's guns, but he will be violating NJ state law when he removes those guns from the state without going through a dealer.
So, bottom line is, I don't think that there are any Federal laws against a normal gun transfer across state lines, as long as it is a "normal" transfer without any criminal intent, or as long as you're not moving guns across state lines to "traffic" them, (that's a legal term that would have to be proven in court, that you were "dealing" guns across state lines without an FFL). However, when bringing a gun across state lines, INTO the state where you reside, I would be sure to be in compliance with your local state laws.
If I'm wrong about any of this, I would hope that someone would point me in the right direction, where I can reference the appropriate laws.
Mousegun
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2005
- Messages
- 738
The rifle has to be legal in the state you are buying it from and the state that is going to.
If you pick it up, you can transfer it through an FFL in KY.
I don't know for sure if you can have the rifle transfered in KY and have it shipped to YOU in OH even though it was transfered in KY.
Pistols have to be transfered and shipped FFL to FFL in both states.
If you pick it up, you can transfer it through an FFL in KY.
I don't know for sure if you can have the rifle transfered in KY and have it shipped to YOU in OH even though it was transfered in KY.
Pistols have to be transfered and shipped FFL to FFL in both states.
NavyLCDR
member
JoefromTN:
If a face to face sale occurs between private parties whose state of residence is different from each other, each party in the sale commits a FELONY against a separate section of 18 USC (United States Code) 922:
The buyer commits a FELONY against 18 USC 922 (a)(3):
The seller commits a FELONY against 18 USC (a)(5):
The (b)(3) exception is only for long guns purchased from out of state licensed dealers in person with that dealer:
mousegun,
Handguns do NOT have to be transferred FFL to FFL. They must be transferred to the buyer in the buyer's state of residence by an FFL, however, how the handgun gets to the FFL in the buyer's state is not specified. If the buyer's FFL will accept shipments from private parties, it is perfectly legal for a private party to ship the handgun to the buyer's FFL.
The only way for the long gun transfer to happen in KY and the gun be shipped to the buyer in Ohio is if the gun was shipped by the buyer to himself in OH after the transfer ocurred at the FFL. It would be illegal for the KY FFL to ship it to the private party buyer in OH and it would be illegal for any other KY private party to ship it to the buyer in OH. The only way an FFL can ship a gun to a private party who is not in the same state is if that gun is being returned to its original owner who sent it to them for repairs.
If a face to face sale occurs between private parties whose state of residence is different from each other, each party in the sale commits a FELONY against a separate section of 18 USC (United States Code) 922:
The buyer commits a FELONY against 18 USC 922 (a)(3):
The seller commits a FELONY against 18 USC (a)(5):
The (b)(3) exception is only for long guns purchased from out of state licensed dealers in person with that dealer:
mousegun,
Handguns do NOT have to be transferred FFL to FFL. They must be transferred to the buyer in the buyer's state of residence by an FFL, however, how the handgun gets to the FFL in the buyer's state is not specified. If the buyer's FFL will accept shipments from private parties, it is perfectly legal for a private party to ship the handgun to the buyer's FFL.
The only way for the long gun transfer to happen in KY and the gun be shipped to the buyer in Ohio is if the gun was shipped by the buyer to himself in OH after the transfer ocurred at the FFL. It would be illegal for the KY FFL to ship it to the private party buyer in OH and it would be illegal for any other KY private party to ship it to the buyer in OH. The only way an FFL can ship a gun to a private party who is not in the same state is if that gun is being returned to its original owner who sent it to them for repairs.
Last edited:
NavyLCDR
member
Additionally, most state's "contiguous states" laws now mean that a resident of those states can purchase long guns from an FFL in any state, because the Federal law changed, but those states have not revised their laws to reflect the new Federal law. This is addressed in the 2004 August FFL Newsletter published by the then ATF, now known as BATFE:
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Sometimes you can just ask "the man."
To sum it up: Face-to-face transfer of a rifle or shotgun IN YOUR STATE: legal.
Face-to-face transfer of a rifle or shotgun WITH SOMEONE IN ANOTHER STATE: illegal.
Purchase from a dealer in another state: legal if the state laws of your state and the dealer's state are followed.
Purchase from another source other than a dealer IF THE WEAPON IS TRANSFERRED FIRST THROUGH A DEALER IN YOUR STATE: legal.
All clear?
-Sam
Edit: Ahhhh NavyLT beat me to it with the actual text! Cool.
To sum it up: Face-to-face transfer of a rifle or shotgun IN YOUR STATE: legal.
Face-to-face transfer of a rifle or shotgun WITH SOMEONE IN ANOTHER STATE: illegal.
Purchase from a dealer in another state: legal if the state laws of your state and the dealer's state are followed.
Purchase from another source other than a dealer IF THE WEAPON IS TRANSFERRED FIRST THROUGH A DEALER IN YOUR STATE: legal.
All clear?
-Sam
Edit: Ahhhh NavyLT beat me to it with the actual text! Cool.
NavyLCDR
member
I have had TONS of practice with this question and have it all saved on my computer already. I don't really know why this same question keeps getting asked over and over again, but it comes up at least once a week and every week someone answers with very wrong "thoughts" on the subject.
JoefromTN
Member
OK, thanks fellas for all the cut and paste, I hadn't done that much research. All I knew was that when I checked with the BATF, (several years ago when my friend made that transfer from NY to TN back before the Internet when ya could look that stuff up for yourself), they told me that Federal laws hadn't been broken as long as the transfer wasn't considered "trafficking".
Thanks for the update.
Thanks for the update.
NavyLCDR
member
Ummm... the GCA, Gun Control Act, has been in effect since 1968 - it has been the same Federal law regarding out of state sales, except for dropping the contiguous state restriction in 1986, since 1968, so either "several years ago" means >42 years ago, or you had a BATFE agent who was woefully ignorant of Federal law.
JoefromTN
Member
NavyLt,
"Several years ago" means about 15, so you are correct that the law was broken. This was before the Internet was as functional as it is today and the info I got was in a phone conversation with a BATF agent who seemed not to be too interested in getting too involved in the specifics of the answer. He simply told me that if the "transfer" wasn't an attempt to "traffic" across state lines, it wouldn't be prosecuted. Maybe he didn't mean to say that it wasn't "illegal", just that it wouldn't be prosecuted.
"Several years ago" means about 15, so you are correct that the law was broken. This was before the Internet was as functional as it is today and the info I got was in a phone conversation with a BATF agent who seemed not to be too interested in getting too involved in the specifics of the answer. He simply told me that if the "transfer" wasn't an attempt to "traffic" across state lines, it wouldn't be prosecuted. Maybe he didn't mean to say that it wasn't "illegal", just that it wouldn't be prosecuted.
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 3,285
Ahhh... the ridiculous complications of gun ownership.
The truth is often buried deep within local, state, or federal law. The laws make little sense, and there is probably a larger percentage of gun owners who routinely violate these laws without even knowing it!
I've lived in various states in my lifetime, and have gun friends in other states. I imagine I'm not the only one. My state requires no registration, and person-to-person sales are lawful. My old state was the same way. I'm an LEO myself, and I wouldn't have even considered that it could have been a problem to purchase a gun from one of my friends back in my home state, because it never would have been a problem back when we were living in the same state (and that includes EITHER state)!
So, I just have to shake my head sometimes and wonder how it became so easy for a law-abiding citizen to unwittingly become felons!
The good news, of course, is that this is probably next to impossible to track/prosecute on the basis of a person-to-person sale, without the intent to traffic arms (at least in states where guns aren't yet registered).
The truth is often buried deep within local, state, or federal law. The laws make little sense, and there is probably a larger percentage of gun owners who routinely violate these laws without even knowing it!
I've lived in various states in my lifetime, and have gun friends in other states. I imagine I'm not the only one. My state requires no registration, and person-to-person sales are lawful. My old state was the same way. I'm an LEO myself, and I wouldn't have even considered that it could have been a problem to purchase a gun from one of my friends back in my home state, because it never would have been a problem back when we were living in the same state (and that includes EITHER state)!
So, I just have to shake my head sometimes and wonder how it became so easy for a law-abiding citizen to unwittingly become felons!
The good news, of course, is that this is probably next to impossible to track/prosecute on the basis of a person-to-person sale, without the intent to traffic arms (at least in states where guns aren't yet registered).
NavyLCDR
member
And, from my recent conversations with BATFE agents, that's the impression I get too. They really don't care about dad giving son a gun who just happens to be a different state resident. Yeah, it's illegal, but the agents I have talked to have pretty much said, "Eh, who really cares?" Kind of like a 20 year old having a beer at night with dad in their house. But it would still make me nervous anyway doing something like that, so I wouldn't take the chance myself.
deadin
Member
I would worry about their boss coming in the next day and saying "You know, I just heard from hq and they feel that our prosecution rate is too low. I guess we had better make an example or two. Got anybody we can nail?"
Thanks for all the info! So only way is to transfer through an FFL, which would kill the deal since it would be for a 10/22 which is pretty cheap and readily available. I'll just wait for one in OH or locally find one, they seem to be everywhere anyways.
Moo 2 Drvr
Member
Death by a thousand cuts
"The good news, of course, is that this is probably next to impossible to track/prosecute on the basis of a person-to-person sale, without the intent to traffic arms (at least in states where guns aren't yet registered)."
Which is why so many gun grabbers want nation wide registration, ammo encoding as well as a patchwork of federal, state and local laws.
If compliance becomes difficult enough, people either dispose of their guns voluntarily, or stop complying with the law thereby becoming felons ineligible to own guns. Makes sense to me.
Excessive regulation as a way to eliminate a product or good has been used successfully in many other contexts where a direct ban wasn't politically feasible. Study the history of product liability litigation if you need examples.
"The good news, of course, is that this is probably next to impossible to track/prosecute on the basis of a person-to-person sale, without the intent to traffic arms (at least in states where guns aren't yet registered)."
Which is why so many gun grabbers want nation wide registration, ammo encoding as well as a patchwork of federal, state and local laws.
If compliance becomes difficult enough, people either dispose of their guns voluntarily, or stop complying with the law thereby becoming felons ineligible to own guns. Makes sense to me.
Excessive regulation as a way to eliminate a product or good has been used successfully in many other contexts where a direct ban wasn't politically feasible. Study the history of product liability litigation if you need examples.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
See Sticky #4 at the top of the Legal forum page. BATFE regs.
The question's been answered; enough politics...
The question's been answered; enough politics...
- Status
