can i carry into a national park or not?

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If you guys didn't see the documentary by Ken Burns on the History Channel, you'd have enjoyed it and would understand why the law of no weapons is in place. Back during the early 20th century, our national parks were overrun by poachers. It was really bad. Park Service Rangers were killed. The US Army was ordered into Yellowstone to protect it. Things were really out of control for a while.
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What??? Wouldn't that be exactly why law-abiding people should be allowed to carry a gun to protect themselves? That's no different than saying, "If you lived in Chicago you'd know why handguns are banned in the city. Too many gang members have guns there.

Thankfully, today is different and it seems only right to be able to protect one's self and family in national parks.
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Self and family weren't worthy of protection in the early 20th century?

I'm having a real hard time understanding some of the comments in this thread. It appears some of the anti's talking points have been pretty effective at brainwashing some folks.
 
The same law abiding people carrying in local shopping malls and National Forests will be carrying in National Parks. Like always, crime will go down as more guns arrive.

Next year, in light of the NPS respecting the Second Amendment, I will visit Glacier National Park, Yellowstone National Park, walk across the Golden Gate Bridge and maybe visit Yosemite (very crowded). A day hike on one of the Channel Islands should be worthwhile.

Just like normal life, I'll be avoiding the more dangerous areas like Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument.
 
Interestingly enough, firearms have always been legal in the Buffalo National River in Arkansas, which is a National Park. There are signs prohibiting carrying a loaded weapon in a campground, but on the river or hiking the trails, they are perfectly legal -- as is hunting.
 
I live near Yellowstone and have always carried a handgun in the park. I don't wave it around or show it . I have never been asked or checked.
 
This is great news! I'm taking my family on a month long trip during July 2010 from through the Rockies from Glacier NP all the way down to the four corners area of UT/CO/AZ/MN. Now I will be taking my Ruger Security Six along for the ride:)
 
^ My understanding is, the law follows the law of the state the National Park is located in. So...

You have to be legal to carry in that state to be in compliance.

For concealed carry, that means researching reciprocity. For open carry, check those regulations as well.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
Interestingly enough, firearms have always been legal in the Buffalo National River in Arkansas, which is a National Park. There are signs prohibiting carrying a loaded weapon in a campground, but on the river or hiking the trails, they are perfectly legal -- as is hunting.
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It's a 'national river' and run by the NPS. It's a new concept in federal resource management. And it's regs and laws are different...and still being determined, along with their other management plans.

It's even different than the Nat. Scenic Rivers and Waterways designations.
 
^ My understanding is, the law follows the law of the state the National Park is located in. So...
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No problem with legality, I have my NY, PA and FL CC permits so I'm good to CC in most states, or open carry in the rest (where its legat of course)!
 
Speaking of which, does anyone know of or

Can provide internet access to a global reciprocity CCW spreadsheet

For the USA?

Thanks in advance

isher
 
Once this takes effect will somebody be able to take their firearm into a national park, find an area with a good backstop and plink?
 
^ My understanding is, no. New law has absolutely no effect on current rules concerning discharging firearms in National Parks. That is, no hunting, no shooting (plinking) probably will remain in effect. Self defense only, and I would expect any such shooting to be looked at long and hard by Park officials.

I believe this is similar to recent changes in some states (like Washington), regarding carrying a pistol for self defense while hunting during bow or muzzleloader seasons. This used to be illegal, because the assumption was you would use the pistol for hunting. The new rule permits carrying a pistol, but only for self-defense. A question was asked about, "What about dispatching wounded game? Surely that would be OK." Nope.

I applaud the relaxation in silly rules against carrying a weapons for self-defense, but I worry about folks who won't "color inside the lines". :)
 
This is a good question, and shooting still isnt allowed, so probably no.

*IMO* you wont be allowed because:

--the parks are for preservation and trees, burrows, soil, rock/mineral deposits (that may be of interest), etc will be destroyed.

--the noise will disrupt the wildlife, which are a priority in a Nat Park.

--in most cases, brass, shells, etc are left all over. Parks are to be kept in pristine condition, not littered.


While it would be nice if shooters would take these things into consideration in all natural areas, they are priorities in designated "National Parks."
 
Good to know.

I only asked because down here in Montgomery, AL there is the Tuskegee National Forest about 30 minutes away and it has a rifle range in it. However getting to it (especially after it rains) usually requires a truck or SUV it seems.

I'm working down here as a contractor until spring and I'm surprised that a state like Alabama, has very few areas for public rifle shooting.
 
Tuskegee National Forest
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New law shouldn't affect what is permitted in National Forests. Management in National Forests may vary, but generally hunting and shooting is permitted, unlike National Parks where it is not.

There may be restrictions such as "not near campgrounds", or a District Ranger may have the authority to post no shooting for the entire Forest. I'm not sure about local vs. national authority for questions like that.

I have both Olympic National Park and Olympic National Forest nearby, and the administration of these two things is completely different, from the handouts and posted signs that explain the rules. I'm assuming that this is similar in other National Parks vs. National Forests.
 
New law shouldn't affect what is permitted in National Forests. Management in National Forests may vary, but generally hunting and shooting is permitted, unlike National Parks where it is not.
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I actually didn't even notice that it was National Parks and was thinking it was National Forests the whole time. :eek:

On the road (more like a clay path) to the Tuskegee National Forest rifle range there are other paths leading into the forest. Driving down one of these paths I found a few spots that looked like everybody and their cousin twice removed had been plinking there at some point. ;)
 
Most likely, the NPS is going to proceed with the Final Ruling that was developed in December of 2008 when GW changed the CFR to allow carry into National Parks and Fish and Wildlife areas; administered by the NPS. (Surprisingly, it was rather favorable to the issue of guns in the parks.)

Many concerns were documented from non-NPS personnel during a public comment stage and addressed by the NPS. Some of these anti- gun statements were addressed quite favorably (these are all paraphrased with the NPS reply in bold… again, not the exact wording, but the meaning is accurate…basically, I am not going to be typing word-for-word from the copy of the final ruling I’m looking at):

Parks that cross state lands and the fact that states may have different laws concerning concealed carry. (It will be the responsibility of the person with the permit to follow state laws for that part of the Park that is in a particular state. That means if you are in a park such as Yellowstone that crosses a number of state lines, it will be YOUR responsibility as the permit holder to make sure your permit is legal in the state you are actually located in that part of the park. If for some reason you have crossed over to a state that does not recognize your permit and you are discovered carrying, you could be in violation of not only Federal Law, but also state law.)


No need for a visitor to carry a concealed firearm...National Parks/Wildlife areas are unlikely to have a violent crime or criminal assault. (The NPS reply was quite to the point.... Yes National Parks are less prone to criminal activity; "However, we also recognize that current statistics show an alarming increase in criminal activity on certain federal lands managed by the Department of the Interior..." (Quoted text is exactly as written in the final ruling document.)
In 2007, the NPS reported 8 murders, 43 forcible rapes, 57 robberies, 274 instances of aggravated assault.)

NPS and FWS LEOs can adequately protect individuals from harm: (Basically, 3000 full and part-time LEOs patrolling millions of acres of land with a substantial portion in the wilderness cannot guarantee a specific level of public safety on the lands.)

People with guns are more likely to shoot wildlife. (Available data from similar sources such as BLM and NFS does NOT suggest visitors misuse their legally permitted firearms for poaching or illegal shooting.)

Brandishing a firearm will not be illegal. (NPS disagrees. State laws must be followed and these include laws against brandishing a firearm. In addition, no un-authorized target shooting will be allowed.)

This will allow someone to carry a rifle (or other long gun). (NO. Again, following state laws on concealed weapons, handguns, and no long guns will be allowed.)


Environmental impact study. (Not required.)

Endangered species act. (Not required.)

Some items still need to be ironed out such as definition of a Federal Building. Probably will end up being a building used by Federal officials (welcome center for one). In some parks, it might NOT include a concessions building if it is not manned by Federal officials. Toilets, if in a Federal building would be banned. Toilets in the middle of nowhere (such as vault toilets) would not ban handguns. (AGAIN, THIS IS NOT WORKED OUT YET...)

NOTES: during the public comment stage, only one State made any comments. That was AK, which favored the idea of allowing people to carry concealed into a National Park if within a state that recognized their license, or did not require a license.
The NPS looked very carefully at BLM and NFS regulations on the carry of weapons, per state laws, onto their lands. As they researched this, they found out there was no problems with permit holders on BLM or NFS lands. In addition, it was noted that in many areas, you will cross over between NPS, BLM and NFS lands on numerous occasions while hiking, driving, etc.

Forgot to add. If a State takes it upon itself to make it illegal to carry into a NP the NPS will abide by that law. I do know that at one time, NC did not allow carry into National Forests in NC. I believe that was changed a few years ago, but not sure. (Never applied to me anyway.)
In addition, although some of the regs will be based upon NF and BLM current regs, since there will be NO shooting in the NPS, don't get the two mixed up when heading out to target practice. Here in UT, there are a number of areas, with some roads that cross over from BLM to NPS and BLM allows shooting on their lands (outside of campgrounds, wilderness study areas, main trails, etc.) and not all areas are well marked. I know of one trail that jumps into about a half mile of NPS land with NO marker.

AS A DISCLAIMER, THIS IS NOT THE NEW LAW AS IT WILL PERTAIN TO THE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE REFUGE. IT IS WHAT WAS DETERMINED AND PUBLISHED FOR THE FINAL RULING FOR THE CHANGES TO THE CFR DURING THE BUSH ERA. FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD, THE DOI WITH THE NPS WILL TAKE THIS FINAL RULING AND ALTER IT OR LEAVE IT AS IS TO MATCH THE LAW THAT TAKES EFFECT IN FEBRARY (22?), 2010. I DO NOT WORK FOR THE NPS, BUT I DO WORK FOR A GOVERNMENT AGENCY, THAT WILL REMAIN UNAMED HERE FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. HOWEVER, I WAS AT ONE TIME, ASKED FOR INPUT ON THIS SUBJECT BY REPRESENTATIVES OF THE DOI-NPS.
 
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Most likely, the NPS is going to proceed with the Final Ruling that was developed in December of 2008 when GW changed the CFR to allow carry into National Parks and Fish and Wildlife areas; administered by the NPS. (Surprisingly, it was rather favorable to the issue of guns in the parks.)
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AS A DISCLAIMER, THIS IS NOT THE NEW LAW AS IT WILL PERTAIN TO THE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE REFUGE. IT IS WHAT WAS DETERMINED AND PUBLISHED FOR THE FINAL RULING FOR THE CHANGES TO THE CFR DURING THE BUSH ERA. FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD, THE DOI WITH THE NPS WILL TAKE THIS FINAL RULING AND ALTER IT OR LEAVE IT AS IS TO MATCH THE LAW THAT TAKES EFFECT IN FEBRARY (22?), 2010. I DO NOT WORK FOR THE NPS, BUT I DO WORK FOR A GOVERNMENT AGENCY, THAT WILL REMAIN UNAMED HERE FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. HOWEVER, I WAS AT ONE TIME, ASKED FOR INPUT ON THIS SUBJECT BY REPRESENTATIVES OF THE DOI-NPS.
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RETG,

Where did you get your information from? If the NPS adopted the final ruling that changed their CFR in 2008, it would be an illegal action according to the new Federal statute placed into law by the Coburn amendment to the credit card law and would be null, void and unenforceable from the start.

How hard is it to understand that, as of February 22, 2010, whatever method is legal to possess and carry a firearm outside the National Park, will also be legal inside the National park in that state. Period. It is not at all rocket science. For the purposes of firearms possession and carrying, simply erase the gates and boundaries to the National Park!

The Coburn amendment has completely stripped away the power of the Department of Interior to regulate firearms possession and carrying 100%.
 
Attitude can be blinding sometimes.

What was apparent from some peoples' responses was that they didnt realize or recognize there is a difference between the different designations for federal natural areas. "Can I shoot in the Nat Parks?" "I thought they were talking about national forests," etc.

So people do need to realize that ALL the other laws and regulations of a "National Park" are still in force. And that means no plinking out in deserted areas or killing rattlers for example. (Some people seem to think this last one is a public service :-( )

And carrying in buildings within Nat Parks is still somewhat complicated....although probably some people will say its crystal clear to them.....

This last is a concern, for me anyway. Park trailheads and parking lots are very very popular with thieves. They have breaking in, snatch & grab, down to a science. I cant tell you how many reports I had to fill out for people who left their cameras, wallets, etc in their cars. And they can do it in *seconds*.

I do not like ever having to leave my gun in my car. I'd rather leave it home. Even cable-locked & hidden, which is all I have right now.
 
9MMare said:
killing rattlers for example.
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So, I am hiking along and I happen to unintentionally come with a rattlesnakes striking distance. The rattlesnake is there, 2 ft away from me, rattling away, in striking pose, and I can't shoot it?

OR, it is 2 ft away from my child and I tell my child to freeze, don't move... and I can't shoot it?

We are speaking about after Feb 22, 2010, of course.

9MMare said:
And carrying in buildings within Nat Parks is still somewhat complicated....although probably some people will say its crystal clear to them
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The Federal statute is pretty crystal clear, to me anyway:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
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I really don't see where anything is left up to interpretation.

The "complications" with carrying in a National Park are, imho, a media ploy by the anti's who are against law abiding citizens carrying guns anywhere. Carry in National Parks, after 22 Feb 2010, will be no more complicated than carrying anywhere else in the state outside the National Park.
 
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NavyLT said:
So, I am hiking along and I happen to unintentionally come with a rattlesnakes striking distance. The rattlesnake is there, 2 ft away from me, rattling away, in striking pose, and I can't shoot it?

OR, it is 2 ft away from my child and I tell my child to freeze, don't move... and I can't shoot it?
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Are you saying you're going to stand still 2 feet from a irritated rattler, draw your gun, and shoot it?

I'm not trying to say that it's always inappropriate to shoot a rattlesnake, but in most situations in which you will encounter one, you can move out of striking distance faster than you can shoot it. If you're not in striking distance, it's not going to come after you.
 
I do indeed currently work for the NPS. NOTHING has been sent down the pipe to my site concerning this matter, except for back during the initial proceedings of when it was breifly allowed before the injunction. Nothing about the Coburn amendment's changes or anything like that.

If after February 22, 2010 you decide to exercise your right to carry into a National Park Site, I would advise you to do so concealed and discretely, it would definitley be wise not to OC until everything shakes out from higher up. Yes, I know and respect that you are well within your rights to do so, but the fog of bureaucracy often delays the notifications of rules changes and such to the working stiffs and I fully expect wrong decisions to be made by lower level NPS administration and staff, at least until full explanations and better instructions come down from the regional level.

Provided that I am still employed by the NPS over the next few months, I will keep THR advised of the official notifications the staff at my site receives and what instructions we are given.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it has been a great advance to see CCW allowed in the national parks. I never thought I would see it and I never thought the attempt would pass the first time. Let's hope the implementation continues smoothly and nobody gets hassled for doing something that's perfectly legal.
 
Avenger -

You may have just coined a classic phrase,

"but the fog of bureaucracy."

Is that similar to

"the fog of war?"


isher
 
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