Can state law constitutionally prohibit a resident from buying gun in another state?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,653
Location
Peoples Republik of New Jersey
I know, thanks to NavyLCDR, that Federal law prohibits the resident of a first state from buying a gun in a second state if the purchase of that gun by that resident would violate the law of the first state.

This, however, seems to raise a constitutional question. Can the law of one state really reach out and be used to prohibit someone from doing something in another state that would otherwise be legal in that other state? For example, if it was illegal to buy or own a Stanley No. 1 plane in New Jersey, could a New Jersey resident be prohibited from buying a Stanley No. 1 in New York and giving it to one of his New York buddies?

Have any Courts considered the constitutionality of 18 USC 922 (b)(3)?

NavyLCDR where are you?
 
Last edited:
That would be an interstate commerce issue, and there would have to be a Federal statute involved. If State A prohibits a person from purchasing a specific item... that law only applies inside State A. A resident of State A may go to State B and legally purchase that item if legal in State B. Although it might be illegal for that person to bring that item back into State A.

Now, if the Federal government deemed this to be an interstate commerce issue, they could enact a law similar to the out-of-state rifle/shotgun purchasing law.

For example, some states require a handgun license to purchase handgun ammunition. The resident of such state could go to the next state over and buy all the handgun ammo they wanted to, no license required in the next state over. But it might be illegal for them to bring that ammo back into their home state, unless there was a Federal law regulating the sale of handgun ammo.
 
Last edited:
That is my question.

It seems to me that some other part of the Constitution could trump the Commerce Clause if it was being used to prevent a resident of a first state from doing something in a second state that was otherwise legal in the second state.

Imagine it was illegal to get a crew cut in NJ, could the commerce clause be used to prohibit a NJ resident from getting a crew cut in NY?
 
The Interstate Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution. My personal belief was that the Interstate Commerce Clause was initially meant to only allow the Federal government to regulate only those items/services that were actually in movement between the states, actually IN interstate commerce at the time of regulation, and that once movement between the states ceased, the Interstate Commerce Clause should become inapplicable.

Unfortunately, the US Supreme Court has upheld that the Commerce Clause can be applied to anything the HAS moved in or affected interstate commerce, even in the past. Which, basically means, the Commerce Clause can be used by the Federal government to regulate anything and everything.

An item would have to be manufactured in a state, from raw materials exclusive to that state, using labor from that state only, and sold in that state only to not fall under the Commerce Clause.

Let's say a gun is made in Wyoming, from iron mined in Wyoming, using labor from residents of Wyoming and sold in Wyoming. The Commerce Clause can still be applied because other states produce iron as well, and if the iron used was from Wyoming, the other states' iron sales are affected, thus the iron falls under the Interstate Commerce Clause.

An example, see Wickard v.Filburn.
 
Last edited:
But your example treats all residents of all states equal.
In my example, residents of some states are less equal than residents of other states even when they are in those other states.

I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, our US Supreme Court does not.

However.... the inequality that you elude to would be created by the state law of the state the person was visiting at the time, rather than there home state's laws OR that inequality could also be created by Federal law, such as the Federal law prohibiting out-of-state handgun sales.
 
Two customers come into a NY barbershop, one from NJ and one from MA.
The barber says to the NJ customer, "Sorry, crew cuts are illegal in your state." and he proceeds to buzz cut the customer from MA.

Something is wrong here.
 
This reminds me of a case where some guy failed a drug test and his employer fired him. The twist is that he had smoked pot while on vacation to Amsterdam where it is legal to smoke pot. Even though he tested positive he had not done anything illegal.
 
intrastate

"from raw materials exclusive to that state, using labor from that state only, and sold in that state only to not fall under the Commerce Clause."The material? Really?IS there an instance OR case law where a gun is fully native to a state?And therefore leagle under federal law for a prohibited person to possess?I see your saying its not possible at all,That case you quote,is in opposition to a federal defence manual Ive read.that states;the firearm has to have a substantial effect on interstate commerce,To suggest that 10 dollars worth of Steele,has a substantial effect on interstate commerce would seem stubborn and overly technical.because Steele is mined in other states does not demonstrate that it was possessed in interstate commerce.
 
Last edited:
I have seen interesting comments on this subject when it came to black powder firearms (and BB guns) . In NJ they are treated like firearms and in PA they are not. And the Federal Government doesn't see it as a firearm, and is not subject to 1968 GCA. But in NJ they are firearms and a FID and or a pistol permit is needed to obtain them. So going to PA to buy them is legal under PA law and Federal law. But bringing them back into NJ could be cause for concern...

Another variation.............


What about if a NJ resident has property in PA, he buys a rifle in PA that is prohibited in NJ but leaves it at his PA hunting cabin? Legal?
 
Can state law constitutionally prohibit a resident from buying gun in another state?

Long answer coming:

The Commerce Clause was designed to keep States from taxing and levying each other in trade and transportation, and that's all it was ever supposed to do. It must be the most abused part of the Constitution, and by that I mean the one that has most often been used to justify Federal overreach.

Under the current Supreme Court (acting with an authority it does not have) interpretation, the Commerce Clause essentially negates the rest of the Constitution, even the First Amendment.

Consider: A church is located on the border of two states, and it decides to have a food program. All one must do to get some food is ask. Recipients of, say, dry pasta under that program, some of whom live in the other state, no longer need to buy dry pasta. Dry pasta could be made in several states and could be traded across state lines, so Congress can stop that church from giving away pasta under the Commerce Clause. Why? It could be argued that pasta retailers and transporters are being harmed by the church when its members buy pasta in bulk and then redistribute it to people in another state who would otherwise have to buy it at retail, possibly in that state.

As long as a litigant can demonstrate that some activity that is occurring or might occur or could have occurred might conceivably have an effect of any kind on interstate commerce, that activity and any other activity that might contribute to or detract from that activity can be messed with by the Federal government.

Wordy, I know. But the way I phrased it reflects the way it's been applied. The OP's question is therefore answered. Regardless of what any other part of the Constitution says, SCOTUS believes it can do anything that it wants to do, or stop anything that it wants to stop, under the Commerce Clause. State laws are ultimately subordinated to that principle.

This is patently wrong on many levels, but that's another discussion.
 
Dry pasta could be made in several states and could be traded across state lines, so Congress can stop that church from giving away pasta under the Commerce Clause.
The classic example was Wickard v. Filburn, which found that the Federal government could regulate what a private citizen could grow on his own land for his own consumption, based on a convoluted stretch of the Commerce Clause.

This opened the floodgates to attach just about every nanny state notion to the Commerce Clause.
 
i guess the state could inact a law saying that a private citizen couldnt import a item in to that state. and say that said item had to be braught in through a licenced buisiness.

several years ago they finaly pulled a law here off the books that said milk couldnt be transported across a county line. so i guess that means milk couldnt be braught in to the state because it would cross a county boarder in the process.

btw you could just ship it to a ffl and skirt the law if you are having that problem.
 
andrewstorm said:
"from raw materials exclusive to that state, using labor from that state only, and sold in that state only to not fall under the Commerce Clause."The material? Really?IS there an instance OR case law where a gun is fully native to a state?And therefore leagle under federal law for a prohibited person to possess?I see your saying its not possible at all,That case you quote,is in opposition to a federal defence manual Ive read.that states;the firearm has to have a substantial effect on interstate commerce,To suggest that 10 dollars worth of Steele,has a substantial effect on interstate commerce would seem stubborn and overly technical.because Steele is mined in other states does not demonstrate that it was possessed in interstate commerce.

Well, let's look at example in Federal law, shall we?

18 USC 922 (q):

(q)
(1) The Congress finds and declares that—
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools,
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

So you see any minimum or lower limit as to how much the firearm must have moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce? I don't. If the Feds really wanted to prosecute under this law, do you think a defense of "Well, the gun only affected interstate commerce to the amount of $10" would be viewed as being valid?

It was not valid in the case I pointed to of Wickard v.Filburn. The subject there was one crop of grain that remained on the defendant's farm and was used only for his own consumption only on his own farm. But that one crop of grain had enough affect on interstate commerce that the US Supreme Court said that the Interstate Commerce Clause applied to it.
 
deadin said:
OK, does FOPA protect me when I have to drive on the only road out of town that also passes through a school zone?

Sort of. FOPA requires that the gun be unloaded and locked in an exterior compartment of the vehicle or in a locked case. That is also a specific exception to the 1000' Federal school zone prohibition:

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle

If you are complying with FOPA, you will also be complying with the 1000' Federal School Zone law.
 
Johnny Dollar said:
Is it correct that if you possess a CHP for that particular state,FOPA is not needed for GFSZ's, and you can carry on your person as usual?

I have a non-res CHP for PA and NH for that reason as I visit those states every year.

Possessing a permit from the same state the school zone is located in will exempt you from the Federal School Zone law, if the permit requires a background check to obtain:

18 USC 922 (q):
(2)
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Reciprocity is not good enough, the person must possess a permit or license actually issued by the state the school zone is in.
 
It seems that the question should not be about what you BUY in another state but what you bring back across the state line. As I understand it once you leave your state you are no longer subject to that states laws but to the laws of the state you are currently in. For example gambling is illegal in my state but not in Las Vegas. If I went to Vegas and won big could I legaly bring my winnings home to my state even though they were won through a method (gambling) that is illegal here. Why are firearms different?
 
The issue here is not state laws allowing or prohibiting the sale of an item. The problem is that Federal law prohibits the FFL in State A (where said purchase of the firearm would be legal) from selling a firearm (long guns only please) to a resident of State B, who would be legal to own said firearm in State A, if, in State B the transaction would be illegal.

An example would be a gun shop near my house, literally yards from the MA state line. All of their firearms have tags with a check box labeled MA Legal. I, as resident of NH can buy any of them, but a MA resident from 100 yards down the road has to check the tag because if it is not MA legal, by fed law, the shop can't sell to him. Think ARs, AKs, any other evil gun. There is also a list of authorized handguns (I believe the shop maintains an facility in MA for handgun transfers) for MA residents. One 1911 from brand A will be legal while an identically optioned 1911 from brand B is not, because they chose not to jump through the necessary hoops.

It's not right in any way shape or form, but it is the way it works (for now).
 
NavyLCDR said:
Unfortunately, the US Supreme Court has upheld that the Commerce Clause can be applied to anything the HAS moved in or affected interstate commerce, even in the past. Which, basically means, the Commerce Clause can be used by the Federal government to regulate anything and everything.

An item would have to be manufactured in a state, from raw materials exclusive to that state, using labor from that state only, and sold in that state only to not fall under the Commerce Clause.



That doesn't even seem true anymore. The Raich case dealing with marijuana went even further and expanded the authority beyond that limit.
It determined that even a product made entirely within the state, from dirt and water in the state, even if not sold at all and never a part of commerce intrastate or interstate, and never even transported in the state nevermind across a border or involving anything that has crossed a border, is still under federal authority through the commerce clause, and even through a new power granted by Scalia that could apply to everything else as well.
Even a hippy growing from rain water and California dirt for personal use and nothing ever being transported or sold would find themselves subject to federal authority through the Commerce Clause.


Once again even a plant made with nothing from out of state, and not even sold in the state or out of the state is still considered subject to federal authority in part through the Commerce Clause.
Now extend the same logic to anything else, including firearms.

This has also already been applied to firearms, involving a homemade NFA item in Arizona. Raich was cited as the legal reason federal law still applied by the SCOTUS and remanded to the lower court to reconsider its decision 'in light of Raich'. The SCOTUS basically said Raich covers all firearms by doing so, bringing them under federal jurisdiction.



This means a gun made from ore in your back yard, never transported in state or out of state, and never even sold in commerce at all in state or out of state, would still be subject to the 'Commerce Clause'.
According to Scalia, champion of Heller, just in case the Commerce Clause cannot be stretched in all possible scenarios, and clearly now it can, one can also invoke the 'Supremacy Clause'. (Of course to never seem like they are legislating from the bench the legal tradition is to give the impression any decision is based on prior decisions and existing logic. However this new clause is even more all encompassing than the Commerce Clause which has been the basis of federal jurisdiction in most areas for centuries, so nothing cannot be determined outside of federal jurisdiction now.)

Nothing is outside of federal jurisdiction now unless they say otherwise for that specific thing.


This is why all the state passed 'Firearm Freedom Acts' and the like are already defeated per case law. Every gun, made from any material, even if it involves nothing from out of state at any point, would be subject to federal jurisdiction under this new all powerful all encompassing interpretation.


As a result one must even consider prior cases like Lopez, dealing with the Gun Free School Zone Act. The primary defeat for that legislation at the time was having to prove the gun was subject to the commerce clause, or that its possession at or near a school had an impact on commerce and clearly 'in light of Raich' that would no longer even be a concern.
As a result the Lopez case heard today under the new much more powerful interpretation of the Commerce Clause would be unlikely to have even reached the same conclusion.
The original legislation would have sufficed, even before being re-written by Congress and passed again. (Now perhaps it could be determined to violate the 2nd and so be unconstitutional, but it certainly wouldn't be outside of the commerce clause jurisdiction.)
 
Last edited:
The real bottom line is that the exact question posed by the OP hasn't been answered by a court. But personally, I wouldn't bet on SCOTUS tossing 18 USC 922(a)(3) or 18 USC 922(a)(5). It might make for interesting litigation if someone has a bunch of money he'd care to spend pursuing the question, but I don't think an outcome we'd consider favorable could be a foregone conclusion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top