Can a state regulate transfers for residents outside the state.

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RX-79G

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The specific instance I'm thinking of is WA state - where private firearms sales must go through a dealer. I'm not interested in pulling a fast one or violating any laws, I'm just curious how this works:

RCW 9.41.113
Firearm sales or transfers—Background checks—Requirements—Exceptions.

(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.

This appears to regulate transfers within the state of WA. Which would make sense that WA does not have to power to prosecute actions taken outside its borders.

From the ATF website:
In regard to transferring firearms between individuals residing in the same state, any person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Please note that there may be State and local laws that regulate firearm transactions.

I realize that is just a synopsis, but the Federal laws regarding unlicensed individuals appear to be based on the legal residence status of the individuals transferring, rather than the location at the time of transfer.


This would appear to create a situation where two WA residents could make a FTF transfer without a background check, as long as the sale does not happen within the borders of WA.


Again, I don't ask because I want to screw with the law - I live 3 hours from any state border. But as far as a state's ability to regulate commerce beyond its borders go, would two residents from Spokane who met in Idaho to make a FTF sale actually be violating either WA or Federal law, since the sale is outside WA borders but between residents of the same state?


Related to this would be something like a CA resident buying an AR15 from a FFL in WY to keep in his WY cabin, or temporary sporting loans outside WA borders by a WA resident. Do states have any say in the Federally legal possession of firearms when its citizens are in other states?
 
I don't believe a CA resident can legally buy anything in Wy if it isn't legal in CA. That's one part of fed regs.
 
I don't understand how a state can make laws about what its residents do or own in another state, but I'll withdraw the CA comment if it confuses the central question.
 
That's an interesting question. I don't know if there is a federal requirement that the transfer happen within the borders of the state of residence (but there may be). I'll be interested to see what the forum lawyers have to say.



Related to this would be something like a CA resident buying an AR15 from a FFL in WY to keep in his WY cabin, or temporary sporting loans outside WA borders by a WA resident. Do states have any say in the Federally legal possession of firearms when its citizens are in other states?

This isn't exactly the same issue. Look into the ATF's thoughts on dual residency (should be in their FAQs). My understanding is that residency for the purposes of the GCA relates more to where you are living at the time. I.e. If you're a resident of state A, but have a vacation home in state B that you live in for 6 months (to make up a random amount of time) each year, for that period of time you should be treated as a resident of state B in regards to the GCA and firearm transfers. Note the part brow about "two states of residence and may purchase a firearm in either state".

(Not sure if this holds for people outside the military - the below quote is the FAQ, not actual legal code. Anecdotally I have heard it applies to college students but I don't have anything to back that up.)

What constitutes residency in a State?
For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a State in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that State. The State of residence for a corporation or other business entity is the State where it maintains a place of business. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a)(3), and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.11]

Last Reviewed September 23, 2016
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state

Note: emphasis is mine.


That said, good luck actually getting a FFL to believe that there is such a thug as dual residency for the purposes of the GCA and firearm transfers.

Also, to your specific example, I would bet most FFLs would say no the moment CA was mentioned regardless of actual legality. A lot of FFLs just don't want to risk screwing up.
 
I don't understand how a state can make laws about what its residents do or own in another state, but I'll withdraw the CA comment if it confuses the central question.

I'm not sure its a state thing, it may be a federal thing related to their rules about buying guns out of your home state. You cant buy a handgun out of your home state in any event. Cant take possession of it more specifically. Ive bought them interstate but they had to ship to my home state to take possession.

ETA: found this

https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...ed-person-acquire-firearm-under-gca-any-state
 
I don't understand how a state can make laws about what its residents do or own in another state...

It's not what they can or can not do in another state,,,
Brothels are not legal in California but they can not tell a California citizen he (or she) can't visit one in Nevada.

What they do have the authority to say is,,,
You may purchase something in another state,,,
But you can not bring it across the border into this state.

Aarond

.
 
It's not what they can or can not do in another state,,,
Brothels are not legal in California but they can not tell a California citizen he (or she) can't visit one in Nevada.

What they do have the authority to say is,,,
You may purchase something in another state,,,
But you can not bring it across the border into this state.

Aarond

.

I believe in the case of buying, for example, an "M-16 Marauder", if you are a CA resident, and want to buy an M-16 Marauder in Wy, if it isn't legal to buy one in CA, then Wy cant sell you one.

This,
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensee-sell-firearm-nonlicensee-who-resident-another-state

"In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensee’s business premises is located in an over–the–counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides."
 
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It's not what they can or can not do in another state,,,
Brothels are not legal in California but they can not tell a California citizen he (or she) can't visit one in Nevada.

What they do have the authority to say is,,,
You may purchase something in another state,,,
But you can not bring it across the border into this state.

Aarond

.
But that's not what Malamute was talking about. It is implied that you can't purchase a gun in another state if that purchase would not conform to your home state's laws, since that's what the Fed regulation demands. I just don't understand how a dealer in IA could know and conform to the waiting period of WI. But that is a different question.

However, I think my question is answered by 922 (a)(3):
for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,

So it doesn't matter if the purchase is between state residents - the problem is that the new owner has acquired the gun out of state in a manner not listed as an exception.


As far as military purchases, you use your orders and duty station address to purchase rather than your home state ID address. Maybe non-military can get a resident ID for your second residence and use that. Dunno.
 
In the matter of waiting periods in ones home state, I'm not sure how that works. If the Iowa or whatever dealer wanted to sell a non-resident a gun, they may be required to find out what they have to do (waiting period or whatever). I wont have time to look that up til later.

The ATF site has a lot of info, it isn't always quite where you expect it to be though.
 
I don't understand how a state can make laws about what its residents do or own in another state, but I'll withdraw the CA comment if it confuses the central question.

Another example.
You are still subject to US laws even when traveling abroad. So if you engage in a legal activity in a foreign country, but it is illegal in the US you can be prosecuted when you return home. Just because it is written don't make it fair, just, right, etc.




.
 
Another example.
You are still subject to US laws even when traveling abroad. So if you engage in a legal activity in a foreign country, but it is illegal in the US you can be prosecuted when you return home. Just because it is written don't make it fair, just, right, etc.




.
What you're saying is that I can't go to France and receive a medicine that is not FDA legal, and could be prosecuted for doing so when I return to the US?

That's incorrect.
 
I think you are suggesting this hypothetical:

Two Washington residents travel to Idaho. Resident A has a rifle that Resident B wants. A sells the rifle to B while in Idaho. The sale has occurred outside of Washington between two Washington residents. B then returns to Washington.

Federal Law has this to say:

18 USC 922 said:
(a)It shall be unlawful—
...
(3)
for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

Resident B would seem to be running afoul of the 1968 GCA.

Then again, I am not a Lawyer.
 
I think you are suggesting this hypothetical:

Two Washington residents travel to Idaho. Resident A has a rifle that Resident B wants. A sells the rifle to B while in Idaho. The sale has occurred outside of Washington between two Washington residents. B then returns to Washington.

Federal Law has this to say:



Resident B would seem to be running afoul of the 1968 GCA.

Then again, I am not a Lawyer.
Yeah, that's what I said and quoted in post #8.
 
....This appears to regulate transfers within the state of WA. Which would make sense that WA does not have to power to prosecute actions taken outside its borders....

It's not necessarily true that Washington State can't prosecute actions outside its borders. For example, see Washington State, RCW 9A.04.030::
State criminal jurisdiction.
The following persons are liable to punishment:


(1) ...

(2) ...

(3) A person who being out of the state, counsels, causes, procures, aids, or abets another to commit a crime in this state.

(4) ...

(5) ...

(6) ...

(7) ...​

It's called "long arm jurisdiction." While the principles of due process limit the extent to which a State can apply its laws to someone not in the State, there can be some meaningful contact, e. g., doing something outside the State causing an effect in the State, sufficient to justify that State applying its laws to you. So, for example, someone from out-of-state helping someone else commit a crime in that State would generally be found sufficient contact to justify jurisdiction in connection with that crime.

...This would appear to create a situation where two WA residents could make a FTF transfer without a background check, as long as the sale does not happen within the borders of WA....
That might not violate Washington law, but, if he takes the gun home with him, it probably violates federal law, specifically 18 USC 922(a)(3) which provides in pertinent part as follows (emphasis added):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

... would two residents from Spokane who met in Idaho to make a FTF sale actually be violating either WA or Federal law, since the sale is outside WA borders but between residents of the same state?....
And yes, if the buyer took the gun home with him he would be violating federal law (18 USC 922(a)(3)) by transporting into his State of residence gun he obtained outside his State of residence.

... to this would be something like a CA resident buying an AR15 from a FFL in WY to keep in his WY cabin, or temporary sporting loans outside WA borders by a WA resident. Do states have any say in the Federally legal possession of firearms when its citizens are in other states?

In those two hypotheticals the States probably have no say, but each raises questions under federal law.

In the case of a California resident buying an AR-15 from an FFL in Wyoming to keep in Wyoming, depending on all the facts, the FFL might be violation federal law to make the sale (and the California buyer might have liability for aiding and abetting the FFL's possibly unlawful act). See 18 USC 922(b)(3) which provides in pertinent part as follows (emphasis added):
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph


(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States),...​

So to be lawful the sale by the Wyoming FFL to the California resident must fully comply with all requirements of both California and Wyoming law without regard to whether the California resident takes the gun back to California. Among other things, California firearms transfer laws require a dealer make a particular filing with the California DOJ. A non-California FFL will not be able to comply.

But all of that might be moot. If the Wyoming cabin is a vacation home for the Californian, he might be considered a Wyoming resident for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968 when he is present at his Wyoming home. For the purposes of the GCA, "State of Residence" is defined as follows (27 CFR 478.11, see example 2):
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3.

A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4.

A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.​

The loan of a firearm by a resident of one State to a resident of another is also covered under federal law (18 USC 922(a)(5)). It is however expressly permitted when temporary and for a lawful, sporting purpose.

I also need to say something about multistate situations or situations in which the laws of multiple jurisdictions could apply. There is an acknowledged branch of law dealing with such situations. It's called "conflicts of law." Whenever the laws of multiple jurisdictions are involved there will be no simple answers. The resolutions of such questions are very fact dependent and will also depend on the particular conflict of law rules of the involved jurisdictions.

A side issue could be when does federal law preempt state law. That's another complex, non-intuitive matter. I briefly discussed federal preemption principles in this post.
 
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