Can this be done legally?

[Run&Shoot]

I would like your advice on whether ther is any way to help someone be armed in a legal manner. Obvioously, I will not rely sololy on an Internet forum to make a final decision, but looking for advise so that I can narrow down the issues. I know some of you guys are FFLs or have handled many transfer situations and probably know pretty well what can and can not be done according to the law. I have no wish to set her or me up for felony charges!

My daughter is driving home from college in the Northeast later this year. Most of the way she will be able to stay with friends. We are planning everything we can to prevent breakdowns and for safe travel. However, I would feel a lot better if there were someway she could armed with a handgun, or at least a shot gun. I have taken her target shooting several times and she is very capable with a revolver, Glock, or 12 ga pump. She is in a military academy and has the proper mindset for self defense (I wish she could take her M14!).

The problem is that she is an Oregon resident, going to school in the NE, and traveling across country to LA and then home to Oregon (pronounced Orygun).

1) Is there anyway I could send her one of my pistols via an FFL to her at the local college town? Or even a shotgun? Does she have to be a resident of that NE state in order to recieve it from the FFL? This would be the most direct manner I think.

2) Could a friend at school loan her a firearm for the trip and then have her return it later in the year or ship it back to him?

3) Anyway she could purchase one herself outside of Oregon?

4) I can't remember, but she may have actually gotten a driver license in her college state (VT). Would that be enough to allow her to purchase something herself? Her car is registered in VT already.

5) What about non regulated fiream options? Anything I could set her up with in pre-1899, or blackpowder? A Glock 19 and a Rem 870 would be ideal, but ANY gun would be better than nothing. Simpler the better, but if she was able to get it early enough I am sure she could get instruction on its use and get in some practice. I think a Walker .44 would be more than enough to discourage an assault. Any restriction on owning, shipping or travelling with something in this category? If practical, then what would be the best one (handiest, simplest, most reliable, effective)?

6) Any other ideas on the best defense non-firearm she could have with her on a road trip? MagLite, machete , pepper spray, etc.?

Forget about canceling the trip. She is trying to get a male travelling companion to go along, but that does not seem to be working out. She is an adult and determined to make the trip with or without a fellow traveler. but she is more than willing to consider safety options. She een thanks me for raising her to be parnoid, although I like to think I am prudently cautious.

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful advise. Seems that thre ought to be a way this can worked out to make her safer and keep the LEAs happy as well.

Jeff

 

[doggscube]

After I inherited my Ruger Old Army .44 black-powder revolver, I ordered an R&D conversion cylinder that allows me to fire .45LC cowboy loads. The ATF classifies that cylinder as a part.

I have no idea what the feds think about that gun when that cylinder is installed, but this info may be piece of the puzzle you're looking at.

-Jeff

 

[Hkmp5sd]

She can purchase a shotgun and/or rifle from an FFL in any state as long as she is at the FFL and the firearm is legal for her to own at both the place of purchase and her residence.

She can only receive a handgun from an FFL in her state of residence.

Have her purchase a Mossberg 500. Both cheap and reliable.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You have a bigger problem than whether she can receive a handgun in Vermont. You want her to be "armed" while driving across the country. I don't know her planned itinerary, but for most of the states she's likely to go through she would not be legal carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle or on her person even if she had an Oregon permit (which I assume she does not), and she won't be legal in ANY of them without a permit.

This is not something to play games with. If she should be found carrying illegally, depending on the state, it could be a misdemeanor or it could be a felony, and a felony conviction would bar her from touching a firearm for the rest of her life.

Take a look at www.packing.org for the laws of each of the states she will travel through. Two things to keep in mind:

(1) The federal Firearms Owners Protection Act allows you to carry a firearm through a state in the normal course of travel, but only if it is unloaded and either locked in the trunk of the car, or in a locked case away from the driver's immediate control if the vehicle has no trunk (not much help for self-defense); and

(2) Stopping to visit friends changes the character of the travel from "through" to "to" and probably renders the FOPA inoperative for that state. Example: I'm legal in Florida, and I have a non-resident permit for PA. Under the FOPA I can drive through all the states in between if I keep the firearm unloaded and locked up. However, if I stop in North Carolina to visit a friend, NC becomes a destination and if NC doesn't recognize one of my permits, I'm not legal.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The way I read the Second Amendment, it's legal for her to keep and bear arms.

Inexplicably, some people seem to think it's a long, tedious, complicated read.

Well, heck. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Standing Wolf --

Yeah, I know. And in theory I agree with you 100 percent, but I am not willing to become a test case, and I rather doubt that a caring father wants to offer up his duaghter as the sacrificial lamb, so rather than discussing the way things ought'a be, let's discuss the way things are.

And the way things are, she ain't allowed to drive across the country with a loaded gun on her hip or within reach.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The trip from VT to CA passes through several gun-unfriendly states and I would think it ill advised to keep a firearm in the vehicle in any condition other than cased and unloaded, which is useless for self-defense. This considered, I am not aware of any prohibitions on percussion revolvers. BP rifles must be decapped during transport in many states (DOW reg's), but AFAIK the handguns are fairly unrestricted. A 4 pound, 13" long single action is certainly not as appealing as a S&W 642 or 3913LS, etc., but it is still quite capable and much less trouble should it be discovered by John Q. Law.

Too bad so many states do not recognize RKBA. If she travels through Colorado, she is welcome to have a loaded handgun in the glovebox.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

For one, she has to go through Massachusetts. Several years ago I talked with a truck driver who told me he'd done a year in a MassJail for getting caught with a shotgun in his truck.

Next up is New York. You can't even TOUCH a pistol, let alone possess one in that state without their state license/ID card which is NOT issued to non residents. Sure there's the federal firearm travel law that's been previously mentioned, but it's still a crap shoot that police in those states would even abide by it.

 

[Mooseman]

Quick question, is she coming home for good or just a visit? If it's a visit it'd probably be cheaper to just fly her. Otherwise any car trains or such available?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Another option would be for you (or another relative) to fly to her and drive back with her. My father did this a few times to help me haul my belongings between duty stations in the military.

 

[mp510]

From the ATF 2000 Reference:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An
individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the
intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active
duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual’s State of residence
is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located . An
alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a
resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has
resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of
sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate
this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a
hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a
resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a
home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer
months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of
the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a
resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State
Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to
State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not
have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a
home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

If she is 21, then she should be able to buy/come into posession of a handgun from a dealer in Vermont. Vermont tends to be very nice when it comes to guns, but schools are off limits in Vermont. I have no clue what the OR transport regulations are, but you need to have a CHL to carry, and I don't know what OR law defines as carrying. However, for most of her trip, the gun would definetely need to be unloaded (and in many jurisdictions the mag and cylinders would not be able to be loaded either). She could still end up in a hopper of trouble, even if protected by federal law (like that guy in NJ). Look into this very carefully.

 

[meinbruder]

Do I understand this correctly? The young lady will be traveling from NE(state???) to Los Angeles, KA and then to Oregon? Passing multiple hostile sets of laws and interpretations? Then face Seven Hundred miles of KA highway north to freedom?

I can’t tell you how many times she will be subject to arrest and felony charges from the east coast to the west, but while in the state of Kalifonia; the weapon, whatever it is, MUST be stored separately from it ammo, and locked out of reach of the occupants of the vehicle. Perhaps a gun in one bag and ammo in another equals a loaded weapon in a hotel room but it’s squat on the open road.

If she elects to have a “evil assault weapon” the law in KA is even more stringent. The EAW MUST be locked into a hard sided container and the ammo locked in another one, while being locked up out of reach. Felony charges and confiscation await the un-informed.

Concealed carry permits from Oregon, Utah, and Florida might make the trip a lot safer but all bets are OFF in California.
Mike
Portland, OR.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

If she is 21, then she should be able to buy/come into posession of a handgun from a dealer in Vermont. Vermont tends to be very nice when it comes to guns, but schools are off limits in Vermont.

Nice enough to commit a federal felony? She cannot purchase a handgun legally outside Oregon.

 

[Ivy Mike]

The question that keeps coming up in my mind is when do you decide to disobey a bad law?

If she is old enough to buy a handgun, either send her the money to do so if she is a resident of Vermont or buy one and FFL it to her. The Walther P99 has a most comfortable grip as does the Taurus 24/7. There is also the Witness line of pistols from EAA as well as other CZ clones (or a real CZ for a few bucks more)

When she gets back to school, find a gun store that will lock it up for her or a safe deposit box at a bank.

 

[mp510]

HKMP5SD Wrote

Quote:
If she is 21, then she should be able to buy/come into posession of a handgun from a dealer in Vermont. Vermont tends to be very nice when it comes to guns, but schools are off limits in Vermont.

Nice enough to commit a federal felony? She cannot purchase a handgun legally outside Oregon.

I am not sure exactly how she would be commiting the federal felony, if she maintains some sort of residence in VT, which is clearly what she is doing (the girl goes to Norwich, doesn't she?) she can buy as a resident of that state while she is in that state. The ATF makes that clear in their Referebnce, and the only prob I could see is a contradictory state law.

MeinBruder- she is traveling from the North East, VermontT if I remember properly.

I don't think that she should do anything contradictory to any law, and it is possible for her to not break the law. However, the gun will not be there to protect her most of the time, since it will need to be locked up unloaded.

 

[The Drew]

honestly, if she's coming home for good, then she should sell the car and fly home, and have the rest of her stuff shipped. Otherwise as everyone else has said, you'd be risking felonies in several states by having a loaded gun. This includes the gun friendly PA where without a permit having a loaded gun in the car is a serious offense.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You are not going to be able to protect her forever.

If she is going from VT to OR, why the side trip to LA?
Obviously she is not as concerned as you or she wouldn't be making road trips all over the world.

You're just going to have to let her find her own way in the dark world eventually.

She is an adult and determined to make the trip with or without a fellow traveler.

That pretty much tells the tale

You've done the best you can in the other preparations, send her on her way knowing you have done the best a parent could, and pray a lot.

Good luck.

 

[dfaugh]

Well, here's what I would consider:

Forget a handgun, way to many laws to be broken.

Consider something like a Hi-Point Carbine or Sub-2000, that is magazine fed, so it can be kept "unloaded", but loaded in a flash if needed. Now, this is probably still illegal in alot of places (if its in the passenger compartment)...But, I suspect if she DID get busted, and explained the situation to a judge (i.e. Young woman travelling cross country alone, concerned about protection, and the gun wasn't loaded) they probably wouldn't come down hard.

And, make sure she need to watch her "Ps and Qs" such that she doesn't get stopped in the first place.

I would consider this and "acceptable risk" type of deal...Yeah, it bends a few laws, but what is her protection worth?

When i used to drive cross-country, alone, I carried a coupla knives, but to really use a knife you need to be proficient (beacaus you hav to be close to your attacker, which means your also in his reach. I carried 2 "butterfly" knives (one n each side), and could "whip them out" in a split second (I practiced) Having a knife or 2 "magically" appear in someones hand has about the same effect as the sound of racking the slide on a shotgun. They tend to get disinterested, real fast.

Rambling thoughts to consider.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I am having a real problem here. The laws are clear: in many (if not most) of the states through which this young woman will have to drive, she CANNOT legally possess any loaded firearm in her vehicle without risk of being arrested on a FELONY charge. And many of you are (presumably in good faith) actually suggesting to a father that he assist in creating the circumstances that could get his daughter arrested for a felony? In this instance, I am not using a metaphor -- I am shocked.

Black powder? You can buy a black powder firearm without going through an FFL. Once it comes to carrying, AFAIK just about every state treates them EXACTLY the same as cartridge-firing firearms -- i.e. they are deadly weapons. A black powder revolver is not the answer.

The "safe journey" laws are also clear -- unloaded, in the trunk or in a LOCKED case not immediately accessible to the driver. On the seat with the loaded magazine next to it is NOT in the trunk or in a locked case. Yes, maybe a judge would give a girl a break -- or maybe a judge would say that the law says what the law says, and she broke it. If it were your daughter, would you really want her to take that chance?

People, Run&Shoot asked if there's a legal way for her to carry a gun across the country. The short answer is, "NO" -- there is not. Doesn't matter if it's a handgun, a rifle, a carbine, a shotgun, or a black powder revolver. Y'all can come up with all sorts of "maybes" and "what ifs" but the bottom line is, if she does this she won't be legal, and runs a risk of a felony conviction. Beyond that, I think it's up to the gentleman and his daughter to decide if that's a risk she should take.

I am not sure exactly how she would be commiting the federal felony, if she maintains some sort of residence in VT, which is clearly what she is doing (the girl goes to Norwich, doesn't she?) she can buy as a resident of that state while she is in that state. The ATF makes that clear in their Referebnce, and the only prob I could see is a contradictory state law.

This still doesn't affect the legality of traveling with the gun, but I don't see that the BATFE reference you posted addresses this at all. It doesn't mention students. It has been a long time since I was a college student, but when I was ... I was considered a "resident" of the state where my parents maintained the family home. That's where my driver's license was issued, and that's where my car was registered. Student dorms may be included under the part-time "resident while you live there" concept, but living in a school dorm is not the same thing as owning a vacation home in a second state. I would be wary of relying on this BATFE opinion to clarify the situation under discussion.

End of discussion (on my part, anyway).

 

[meinbruder]

Hawkmoon posted the link for packing dot org earlier in the thread. Go there and examine the Oregon, Utah, and Florida permit process and the reciprocity of the states of the union. Time to get the permits might be a factor with the school year drawing rapidly to a close. With those two licenses, which can be had by out of state residents, one can drive from coast to coast with a loaded handgun strapped under the coat.

Some states do not accept them and Fed Safe Travel laws would have to be followed. If the traveler is not in a hurry and can pick routes to use highways only in reciprocal states it is very possible for the Young Lady to travel from Vermont to Oregon while armed. Once in California Safe Travel laws will apply.

Also print out the laws from the states along the route, some require the announcement of carry for a traffic stop. Failure to do so can be a felony.
Mike
Portland, Oregon






"Take a look at www.packing.org for the laws of each of the states she will travel through."

 

[Run&Shoot]

Thanks for the feedback on this issue!

Wow, this has given me a lot to consider. I think the main point that came across in the comments and the packing.org ref is that there is little chance that she can travel with a firearm of any sort in the ready condition. So that is a no-go for us.

However, it does appear that she could likely purchase at least a rifle or shotgun in VT (yes, Norwich forever!) and then carry it unloaded and locked in the trunk. While this does little for "right now" defense, at least it would give her something at night in the hotel room.

I am gaining an aprreciation for how the various state laws make it nearly impossible to be armed on a national scale. Living out West there are many fewer issues, but having to drive through the East and Midwest really adds a lot of restrictions. While fewer there are still some of the more remote places where trucks still have the .30-30 in the window gun rack (probably indicates enough other drivers andpassersby are armed that trying to break into such a truck would be rather hazardous. I know my relatives in Idaho would give a Ney York cop a heart attack with their rolling "arsenal", I mean trucks. The swing down to LA is to visit her sister. At least there the future in-laws are all well armed!

I'll see what she thinks of getting a long arm for the nights in the hotel at least.

Thanks for the sanity check. Pretty frustrating. with as many of us concerned about being armed and with national travel becoming more prevalent it seems there ought to be some way to solve this other than getting every state to recognize the right of any US citizen to be armed.

 

[meinbruder]

What???

I don't understand something. The Florida permit alone will get your daughter from Vermont to the California border while being armed; the exceptions are the states of New York and California. True, the route to drive may be a bit irregular and take a day or two more. What more are you looking for?
Mike
Portland, OR.

 

[huntingnt]

Without getting in a real nasty legal wicket, I believe that pepper spray and a MagLite as a dual purpose backup would be the easiest solution.

 

[Quaamik]

Run&Shoot,

I'm sorry to say that the only weapon your daughter will be able to bring with her, without risking long jail sentances if caught, is the same one that provides the safety on a firearm.

The one between her ears.

I suggest you stock up on coffee (for the daytime) and sleeping pills (for the nights), 'cause I doubt you'll get much sleep while she is on the trip.

I sympathize with you, my daughter's got a few years before I have to worry about this situation.

 

[mp510]

This still doesn't affect the legality of traveling with the gun, but I don't see that the BATFE reference you posted addresses this at all. It doesn't mention students. It has been a long time since I was a college student, but when I was ... I was considered a "resident" of the state where my parents maintained the family home. That's where my driver's license was issued, and that's where my car was registered. Student dorms may be included under the part-time "resident while you live there" concept, but living in a school dorm is not the same thing as owning a vacation home in a second state. I would be wary of relying on this BATFE opinion to clarify the situation under discussion.

Right, you make an excellent point on that. That is definetely something that is a gray area (somehow, her car and DL are in VT according to the first post). I am going to write the BATFE out of interest, and I will post a reply to the latter for you guys. Definetely, not something you want to risk. Also, nix the concept of the Florida permit. From what I have hear, those take the full 90 days, and it sounds like there is not that much time.