Can this be done legally?

[Rockrivr1]

I live in Mass and the laws are very specific in this part of the country. Basically it's jail time if she's caught carrying without a license. I travel frequently to CT, RI, NY and NJ for work and all of these states will throw the book at anyone that carrys and does not have a permit. It sucks but unfortunately that is the way it is up here.

It's not as good as a firearm, but the recommendation of pepper spray is a good one. Don't waste her time with some of the cheap stuff, find out what LE uses and try to get that. Also, a good mag lite is very effective as a baton. If your really nervous, you could get her one of the GPS tracking devices to put on her car. That way you can monitor her progress on the internet.

Hummmm, I'm also wondering about the legality of a tazer. Not the gun looking ones, but the older ones that were hand held.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Be advised that pepper spray is also illegal in Massachusetts, as are stun guns. However, it is possible to travel west from Vermont directly into New York and then south to the Interstate system (NY Thruway), bypassing Massachusetts entirely. However, I suspect that stun guns may be illegal in NY as well. But I'm not certain on that -- please verify if it's being considered.

Pepper spray in MA, believe it or not, carries the same penalty as a GUN

 

[richyoung]

IF you decide to do this - my recommendations:

(edit to add.. car should be completely functional as to tire tread, exhaust, wipers, horn, no obscured windows, all external lights working and at least one spare in the trunk for every external light, as well as the knowledge on how to install them - or prepare to pay someone to do it if one fails on the trip.)

1. Purchase a document folder that clips, straps, or velcros to the passenger visor of the vehicle. Should be available at any auto parts store. (In a bind, a heavy envelope, preverably with string enclosures, oa zippered pouch can be tied to visor with shoelace, string, or taped to it.)

2. Into that visor go the vehicle's registration, proof of insurance, inspection sticker reciept, tag reciept, letter of authorization to use if the vehicle is titled to someone else, AND the driver's (and any co-driver or passenger's - NO EXCEPTIONS!!!) drivers licenses - ALONG with photocopies of ALL of the above - (you can photocopy more than one item to a page if small enough, & use both sides to keep the item count down - I have even known of some people who "lost" a license, and then later found it, and kept one in the wallet, and the other in the envelope...YMMV...).

3. Clear OUT the glove box, preferable the one in between the seats, if available. Procure some innocuous container, (tampon box, small purse, but DEFINATELY NOT a Crown Royal Bag, or anything else a law enforcement officer can claim to have reason to look into!!!!)

4. Procure medium to small handgun (larger if you can swing it & want to...) to fit inside the innocent container.

5. Guess where the pistol goes?

6. Procure windbreaker, jacket, hoodie, etc with pockets big enough to hold innocent container AND small tape or digital voice recorder, or cell phone that does the same.

7. If the girl leaves the vehicle for any reason, windbreaker goes on, and innocent container goes into pocket. Concealed means concealed. Billfold goes in to same pocket. voice recorder goes some where (under small towel, maybe?) unobtrusive and where it can be started by touch at the first sign of being pulled over.)

8. If the vehicle is stopped, no reason to reach for wallet OR OPEN ANY GLOVE BOX!! Turn on voice recorder and dome light if at night, clearly state time and place and "being pulled over by flashing (color) lights on (vehicle description), turn off vehicle, roll down window, and place both hands either at the op of the steering wheel or out the window, open and facing up if possible. Police are trained to watch the hands - that's what kills you. We don't want him nervous or ill at ease for any reason.

When he does the "License, registration, id of passengers" bit keep you hands still and calmly and politely reply, "I hvae all of that in a pouch on my visor, officer. How would you like me to proceed?" Follow his directions, if lawful, and probably even if they aren't.

9. IF ever asked "Do You Mind/May I/ I want to...search your vehicle", remember the David Spade comercials - "THE ANSWER'S ALWAYS NO!!". NEVER EVER EVER. Not without a warrant, and ask him for one if he persists. If he can legally search WITHOUT a warrant, trust me, he wont ask.... read up on "terry frisk", and KMOW what it means...

10. This part sucks, and takes some research. You will have to find out how long a law enforcement officer in each state may detain a person without probable cause or arresting them. Ideally, this will be by having letters from each state's attorney's office in reply to your letter to them that you intend to visit their fair state and need to know the answer to that question. If the officer says "I don't have a warrant, but I'll keep you right here until I get one." the proper reply is "According to the letter your state's attorney wrote me, you can only detain me for XX minutes without arresting me. You have YY minutes left before I leave whether you like it or not." NO OTHER TALKING! Not where you came from, where you are headed, isn't the weather nice = SAY NOTHING! You don't have to, and they can't use what you don't say against you.

I am not a lawyer, and assume no responsability for the potential adverse consequences of doing this. A familiarity with the legal doctrine of "necessity" is recommended. In my experience, most stattes except the worst selectively enforce gun laws. Young minority guys will get popped every time, old folks and proper young ladies almost never. Most cops have mothers, sisters girlfriends, etc. The big plan is to NOT have an enncounter by NOT giving them a reason to stop you. Make sure you have the cruise control set @ 2 MPH below ALL the speed limits, even the urban and construction zones, and don't tailgate, change lanes frequently, drive eraatically or when sleepy, or anything else that draws attentioin to you.

Better tried by twelve than carried by six.

 

[Rockrivr1]

This is true, but it's not usually lethal and she would be able to get away if assaulted. It may be considered the same as a handgun, but I think a prosecutor would be hard pressed to find any jury that would convict her for using pepper spray.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

10. This part sucks, and takes some research. You will have to find out how long a law enforcement officer in each state may detain a person without probable cause or arresting them. Ideally, this will be by having letters from each state's attorney's office in reply to your letter to them that you intend to visit their fair state and need to know the answer to that question. If the officer says "I don't have a warrant, but I'll keep you right here until I get one." the proper reply is "According to the letter your state's attorney wrote me, you can only detain me for XX minutes without arresting me. You have YY minutes left before I leave whether you like it or not." NO OTHER TALKING! Not where you came from, where you are headed, isn't the weather nice = SAY NOTHING! You don't have to, and they can't use what you don't say against you.

So, just where is this "free" country I've been hearing about all my life?

All this guy wants to do is provide a tool or two for his daughter to protect herself on a cross country journey. I guess he's had his eyes opened, eh?

Seems what remains of our freedom is now just freedom to be a victim.

 

[richyoung]

So, just where is this "free" country I've been hearing about all my life?

All this guy wants to do is provide a tool or two for his daughter to protect herself on a cross country journey. I guess he's had his eyes opened, eh?

Seems what remains of our freedom is now just freedom to be a victim.

I "feel your pain" - but the momentum seems to be swinging our way, - the AWB and Brady acts are history, and more and more states are liberalizing their gun laws. Not an ideal situation, true, but still better than any previous time in my adult life. Seems like Osama has reminded at least some of us the world is a dangerous place, and "just give them what they want" doesn't work so well with bears, mountain lions, feral dogs, feral humans, etc. More to the point, I was simply trying to advise this man as how he might MINIMIZE the risk of what he is proposing to do - I don't feel compelled to obey unjust and immoral laws, or to hold others accountable for disobeying them (viva jury nullification!), but I do understand that in an imperfect world, there are financial and legal costs to be born if CAUGHT breaking them (these same laws passed by the cheery lawmakers who are always being caught in corruption...). I'm just outlining a strategy to minimize being caught...

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This is true, but it's not usually lethal and she would be able to get away if assaulted. It may be considered the same as a handgun, but I think a prosecutor would be hard pressed to find any jury that would convict her for using pepper spray.

You are probably correct. But we are trying to advise a person from the other end of the country as to what his young daughter (not himself) can legally do to protect herself. They can certainly make their own decisions as to what (if any) level of risk they may wish to take by skirting laws ... but they can do so only if they understand what the laws are. Your first post gives the impression that carrying pepper spray is legal in Massachusetts. It is not. Once they understand that, it's up to them to decide whether or not to take the chance. We should not presume to make the decision for them by omitting mention of the legal prohibition.

 

[another okie]

A three or four D cell maglite is a better choice. If hold it with your middle finger on the switch and the back of the flashlight over your strong side shoulder you can easily swing it as a weapon if needed, and you should have a powerful flashlight in your car anyway.

A baseball bat on the back seat is not a bad idea, either, though you might want to throw a glove on the seat next to it.

 

[Run&Shoot]

THR is great - more good ideas and good news

Thanks guys for all your discussion. I talked with my daughter today and it looks better and better.

You know done right somewhere along the line when your daughter says that she had already been thinking about how to get a gun to take with her. In fact, she talked to some of her buddies about it and one of them is the son of an FFL in CT. He warned her about the restrictions in many of the states.

Then she says to me, "I was shocked. I mean, a young woman ought to be be able to have a handgun with her when she travels alone!" Man, that warms a daddy's heart to hear.

We are both looking further into perhaps taking a handgun or long arm in a double layered locked safe/trunk of some arrangement. I also sent her 9 pages of safety tips for picking and staying at a motel, while driving, preventing and handling car problems, how to dress for anonimity, alternative weapons and deterrants, etc. She got a kick out of that.

Good news is that she may have found a traveling companion. That is a nice benefit of going to a military school. She has lots of brothers that are gung ho shooters and fighters. Most of her guy friends have been to several hand-to-hand, sniper, weapons, and other combat schools in ROTC and NG or active duty. It is inspiring to see how serious and dedicated these young men are. They are eager, though wary, to serve active duty and many have been deployed for 1-2 years already and come back to finish college.

Anyway, I am offering to pay for the airline ticket back for any friend that wants to drive out West with her and there seems to be one of her hard core brothers that is interested in seeing California. This would be the best deal.

A daughter that wants to be armed, and a hundred big brothers all training for combat makes life pretty good. Just highlights how compromised we have become that a US citizen, especially a young woman, cannot legally do something as simple as drive across country with a sidearm for protection.

I do appreciate both the legal and "civil disobedience" comments. Especially when the writer makes it clear which it is he is talking about.

You guys are the best.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Go national

You guys are the best.

You need to go national with this. Write it up and give it to to someone like John Stossel. You've a sympathetic victim seeking only to defend herself and the state disallows it. Be an Eroom Leahcim (Michael Moore spelled backward)

You can use facts like how New York's law works: no firearms w/o license and a person can not even touch a pistol w/o license. They've a special safety class for NY state that's taught without firearm handling. You need the course to get a license, and you can't get the license without a course...

In Massachusetts one needs a license for pepper spray/mace.

It's a dangerous world out there and one is supposed to send their loved ones out disarmed by government decree. If more of the public new just how bad, restrictive and contradictory firearm law was we might get some changes...