Can You Go Wrong With S&W or Glock?

[76shuvlinoff]

Yes you can go wrong, you'll end up in grip angle arguments.

There are a lot of good manufacturers out there, you only go wrong when you become fixated that the 1st choice you made is THE BEST without further hands on investigation.

I like 1911s and wheelguns, among my tupperware I own one of those double priced XD's too.

I don't own a GLOCK but anytime I've been offered one I shoot them pretty well... but I still don't own one. Yeah that's ironic but my choice. Not a thing to do with grip angle, I just abhor the choir.

It's like owning my Kimber .45, every time I read all the word vomit against Kimber around here I get a true grin because I must be the luckiest gun buyer in the world.

 

[TestPilot]

...I have a department full of Glock shooters. Plenty of local departments also. Plus the public. I've never seen a modified grip on a Glock. I know they exist and plenty of gunsmiths can do it yet despite these thousands of modified guns you claim I've never seen one in the hands of any leo or public person in my decades of shooting Glocks. Like I said, obviously not the norm. I'm also not the only shooter I know that can switch from a Glock to a 1911 style gun with ease.
...

Many departments have "You SHALL NOT modify pistols" policy, so you not seeing modified Glocks in the hands of officers means nothing.

Many people including people like Paul Howe recommends modifications like attaching Grip Force adapter.

...Like I said, no issues. Some of us have been using Glocks with lights long before our department issued them so this is our experience with both Gen3 and Gen4 guns. Maybe it is ammo related. Maybe something else. I don't know. All I know is for us it is a non-issue. Is this a 40 cal issue only? I know of a very large local department using lights with first Gen3 22's and now Gen4 22's without issue.
...

It is certainly an issue for Gen 3. Not all of them are subject to it, and the occurance is random; so you may have not seen it, but there are departments that acknowledged this problem.

http://forums.officer.com/t85284/

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=70772

I have also personally experienced this problem. Failure to feed with lights, then the problem goes away when the light(X300) is removed.

It is still an unknown in regards to Gen 4.

 

[boricua9mm]

You can wind up with a Glock that ejects brass to your face and to the lefthand side. You can also wind up with an M&P that breaks the striker or exhibits poor accuracy b/c of barrel lockup problems.

Looking at straight up brand new production pistols, neither are a sure bet. In my experience, a Gen. 3 Glock made before mid 2010 should be good to go with no issues.

YMMV

 

[The Man With No Name]

Many departments have "You SHALL NOT modify pistols" policy, so you not seeing modified Glocks in the hands of officers means nothing.

Many people including people like Paul Howe recommends modifications like attaching Grip Force adapter.


It is certainly an issue for Gen 3. Not all of them are subject to it, and the occurance is random; so you may have not seen it, but there are departments that acknowledged this problem.

http://forums.officer.com/t85284/

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=70772

I have also personally experienced this problem. Failure to feed with lights, then the problem goes away when the light(X300) is removed.

It is still an unknown in regards to Gen 4.

1. Yes most do not allow any modification of a department issued weapon without prior armorer approval. Many officer do (as do I) own their own Glocks though. Not saying that is the norm either as it isn't where I'm at. Did I also mention that I've never seen one in the hands of the non-leo public either already? I've been frequenting ranges before the Glock ever existed. Yes I thought of taking a Glock 21 myself and having the grip reduced because it was too large for my hands or having the finger grooves (the one change over the years I hated) removed. Never have though. Never thought of getting the grip angle changed nor have I met even one person that did so even though I've met countless Glock shooters over the years so I do not consider that the norm still. Most including ALL the older officers I know seem to live with the grip angle just fine. Some even prefer it although I've personally never found it more instinctive to point vs. a 1911 or (even better) a SAA.
2. Paul Howe is the norm?
3. The issue may exist. I grant that. Just haven't seen it myself and it seems every leo I know that isn't state trooper carries a Glock now. Also don't be too quick to take what you read on the internet as gospel. If that were the case then alot of myths in the past about Glocks would still go unchallenged to this day.

 

[TestPilot]

...
1. Yes most do not allow any modification of a department issued weapon without prior armorer approval. Many officer do (as do I) own their own Glocks though. Not saying that is the norm either as it isn't where I'm at. Did I also mention that I've never seen one in the hands of the non-leo public either already? I've been frequenting ranges before the Glock ever existed. Yes I thought of taking a Glock 21 myself and having the grip reduced because it was too large for my hands or having the finger grooves (the one change over the years I hated) removed. Never have though. Never thought of getting the grip angle changed nor have I met even one person that did so even though I've met countless Glock shooters over the years so I do not consider that the norm still. Most including ALL the older officers I know seem to live with the grip angle just fine. Some even prefer it although I've personally never found it more instinctive to point vs. a 1911 or (even better) a SAA.
2. Paul Howe is the norm?
...

You happen to seeing law enforcement people with Glocks who are forced to carry it without modification does not prove they are satisfied with every characteristics of a Glock. Those who did have complaints about it may stop complaining about it after they got used to the characteristics after training, but they could have been even more effective if the pistol was more compatiple with them in the first place.

There are private person shooting Glocks without complaints? So, people who happenes to like Glock buying it and shooting it somehow makes every characteristics about a Glock a norm for every shooters? Even for shooters who did not buy a Glock in the first place because the don't like the characteristics?

Why do you think it is that nearly every pistols came after Glock that studied what is good about Glock choose to leave out Glock's grip angle?

Why do you think it is that market for changing Glock's grip angle can easily be found, but I could not find a single company offering service to change an M&P, XD, or FNS's grip angle to that of a Glock?

"Paul Howe is the norm?"

What are you implying? So what if he's not the norm? His experience and skills makes his opinion that Glock's grip can be improved by modification is invalid? Does Paul Howe has abnormal body shape? What's your point?

 

[The Man With No Name]

You happen to seeing law enforcement people with Glocks who are forced to carry it without modification does not prove they are satisfied with every characteristics of a Glock. Those who did have complaints about it may stop complaining about it after they got used to the characteristics after training, but they could have been even more effective if the pistol was more compatiple with them in the first place.

There are private person shooting Glocks without complaints? So, people who happenes to like Glock buying it and shooting it somehow makes every characteristics about a Glock a norm for every shooters? Even for shooters who did not buy a Glock in the first place because the don't like the characteristics?

Why do you think it is that nearly every pistols came after Glock that studied what is good about Glock choose to leave out Glock's grip angle?

Why do you think it is that market for changing Glock's grip angle can easily be found, but I could not find a single company offering service to change an M&P, XD, or FNS's grip angle to that of a Glock?

"Paul Howe is the norm?"

What are you implying? So what if he's not the norm? His experience and skills makes his opinion that Glock's grip can be improved by modification is invalid? Does Paul Howe has abnormal body shape? What's your point?

1. They are making qualification yearly, the transition does not require extensive training, they are not instinctively throwing shots high or low because of the grip angle, and they are not complaining about the grip angle. Police departments are still overwhelmingly Glock departments in my state. Year after year of meeting all types of leo's and I've yet to hear one opine for a grip angle change.
2. First you talk about people who are forced to shoot Glock and then those that aren't forced and didn't buy it. The minority that think or really can't deal with the Glock grip angle are NOT the norm. Glock is about sales and they haven't seen any reason to sell these modified grip angle Glocks that you think we all need. That is because for the majority the angle is not an issue. Name one large federal agency, pd, sheriff's office, army, or whatever that chose another gun over the Glock based on the grip angle that they thought was an insurmountable issue they could not overcome.
3. Who is Paul Howe? That is my point. Is he some sort of guru who's opinion I should bow down to? I really don't know who he is and I'm not the one that brought him up so I'm waiting for someone to explain why I should care what he thinks a Glock needs. Maybe I should. I've been getting by for decades using them for first competition and concealed carry then for duty and concealed carry and have been perfectly oblivious at how I could do so well with the grip angle as is.

Don't get me wrong. I've modified more than one Glock and I mean quite a bit. None of the mods I've ever made were ever made because I "needed" them. They were in line with trying to gain a tenth or better in times. The grip angle was something I remember when it first came out and just didn't see a need for. It was one of those things people convinced themselves they needed because they could, so they could have a modded gun, something unusual, or various other vanity type needs. I am not alone in being able to switch from the Glock to various other platforms at will and grip angle not be an issue.

 

[TestPilot]

...
1. They are making qualification yearly, the transition does not require extensive training, they are not instinctively throwing shots high or low because of the grip angle, and they are not complaining about the grip angle. Police departments are still overwhelmingly Glock departments in my state. Year after year of meeting all types of leo's and I've yet to hear one opine for a grip angle change.
2. First you talk about people who are forced to shoot Glock and then those that aren't forced and didn't buy it. The minority that think or really can't deal with the Glock grip angle are NOT the norm. Glock is about sales and they haven't seen any reason to sell these modified grip angle Glocks that you think we all need. That is because for the majority the angle is not an issue. Name one large federal agency, pd, sheriff's office, army, or whatever that chose another gun over the Glock based on the grip angle that they thought was an insurmountable issue they could not overcome.
...

Who ever said the issue cannot be over come?

It can be for most. It's just that it's not worth dealing with when one does not have to.

I don't throw shots over. I out shoot most people who raves about Glocks with their own Glock. But, I still don't like Glock's grip angle and more effective with pistols with other grip angles.

Agencies don't complain because it meets the status quo, not because they're satisfied with every single characteristics of Glock.

Glock did not change the grip angle because they have to totally alter the feeding system which whill have no compatibility with existing models that established a track record of how reliable it is, except for the light issue. Then why did nearly 100% of the companies that made pistols after Glock did not copy Glock's grip angle?

Some have problems with Glock's grip angle and some don't. Only problem I have with your arguemnt is that you seem to be trying to assert that the problem does not exist based on your claim that you did not see people having problems with it. If it works fine with some peope, that's fine and dandy. Just don't claim the problem does not exist when it clearly does for some others. Whether if that problem can be "overcome" is irrelevant. Having to overcome something is a problem in itself.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Who ever said the issue cannot be over come?

It can be for most. It's just that it's not worth dealing with when one does not have to.

I don't throw shots over. I out shoot most people who raves about Glocks with their own Glock. But, I still don't like Glock's grip angle and more effective with pistols with other grip angles.

Agencies don't complain because it meets the status quo, not because they're satisfied with every single characteristics of Glock.

Glock did not change the grip angle because they have to totally alter the feeding system which whill have no compatibility with existing models that established a track record of how reliable it is, except for the light issue. Then why did nearly 100% of the companies that made pistols after Glock did not copy Glock's grip angle?

Some have problems with Glock's grip angle and some don't. Only problem I have with your arguemnt is that you seem to be trying to assert that the problem does not exist based on your claim that you did not see people having problems with it. If it works fine with some peope, that's fine and dandy. Just don't claim the problem does not exist when it clearly does for some others. Whether if that problem can be "overcome" is irrelevant. Having to overcome something is a problem in itself.

You seem to be creating a problem. That is what I am saying. I am saying it is not a problem. I'm saying it is not a commonly done modification. If it were thousands like you assert then you think I would have run into even one shooter over the years with it. You'd think I'd have run into even shooter after shooter that didn't buy a Glock because of it. You are saying that I make it out to be a problem that can be overcome. I'm not. I'm saying "once again" it is not a problem. I guess the sarcasm doesn't seem clear. Let me spell it out. If their were thousands that had this issue like you seem to think then it would also be safe to assume that Glock could easily offer a grip angle option. How are gunsmiths altering the grip angle so easily when it would require a complete redesign of the feed system like you claim. It wouldn't obviously. Even if it were thousands then I still say it would represent just a percentage of 1% of all the shooters that have Glocks. I would say even of that 1% of 1% that less than 5% would actually benefit from such a modification and the rest are just convincing themselves they need it (like most Glock mods) when actually what they need is more trigger time with whatever gun they own. That is not the norm which I thought was the whole point.

 

[LiveLife]

Not to hijack the thread, to me it seems Glock could make a lot of money making another line with 1911 grip angle but that may clash with "Glock perfection" ...

BTW, Lone Wolf makes replacement Glock frames with 1911 grip angle and removable grip panels for $199 - http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=80127

 

[Ankeny]

I am not alone in being able to switch from the Glock to various other platforms at will and grip angle not be an issue.

I tried for years to switch back and forth between Glocks and a 1911 and the Glocks do shoot just a bit higher for me when I shoot from my normal index with minimal visual inputs. Here is a video of a Bill Drill with a G19: Bill Drill
I am not alone with that little issue. Sure I could devote muself to a Glock and train the issue away, but why bother when there are other platforms that shoot where I look? To each his own.

 

[coolluke01]

^^^^ Abomination!!

 

[coolluke01]

double post

 

[kcshooter]

I am saying it is not a problem.

Well, sorry, but you're just plain wrong about that.
It isn't a problem for YOU. But for many others, it is.

it would represent just a percentage of 1% of all the shooters that have Glocks

Yes, but you aren't figuring in the countless number of people who simply won't own Glocks because of the way the grip fits them.

The issue may exist. I grant that. Just haven't seen it myself and it seems every leo I know that isn't state trooper carries a Glock now. Also don't be too quick to take what you read on the internet as gospel. If that were the case then alot of myths in the past about Glocks would still go unchallenged to this day.

It isn't a "may or may not" thing. It does exist. Period. This isn't something you can argue. It isn't "read on the internet", it's in a published notification from Glock, so you can pretty much bank on it.



I get it. You like Glocks. That's fine. But to simply argue that they don't have characteristics that some people find objectionable is nonsensical.

 

[TestPilot]

a

You seem to be creating a problem. That is what I am saying. I am saying it is not a problem. I'm saying it is not a commonly done modification. If it were thousands like you assert then you think I would have run into even one shooter over the years with it. You'd think I'd have run into even shooter after shooter that didn't buy a Glock because of it. You are saying that I make it out to be a problem that can be overcome. I'm not. I'm saying "once again" it is not a problem. I guess the sarcasm doesn't seem clear. Let me spell it out. If their were thousands that had this issue like you seem to think then it would also be safe to assume that Glock could easily offer a grip angle option. How are gunsmiths altering the grip angle so easily when it would require a complete redesign of the feed system like you claim. It wouldn't obviously. Even if it were thousands then I still say it would represent just a percentage of 1% of all the shooters that have Glocks. I would say even of that 1% of 1% that less than 5% would actually benefit from such a modification and the rest are just convincing themselves they need it (like most Glock mods) when actually what they need is more trigger time with whatever gun they own. That is not the norm which I thought was the whole point.

So, if it's not a problem for you and you did not see it then the problem do not exist?

That is flawed logic.

Glock not offering different grip angle is a proof that it is not a problem for anyone? Because what Glock does or does not do is a sole measure of that? Never mind that there are 3rd party industry making money out of Glock grip modification. Conveniently ignoring all the other comanies that do not follow Glock's grip angle. Is Glock the only company in existence that do research on ergonomics and customer needs?

 

[Ben86]

Both M&Ps and Glocks are great guns. Both are durable, reliable and reasonably accurate.

I own both and after using an M&P9 as my carry gun for a year have switched back to my Glock 19 because I have proven to myself that I shoot Glocks better. They have a better trigger pull, and seem to fit my hand better; giving me a more secure grip. To my hands they also seem to have less muzzle flip, perhaps due to the lower bore axis. Glocks are also easier to detail strip and modify. In the end the Glock just works better for me.

As long as you pick the one that works better for you I doubt there will be a problem.

 

[Dnaltrop]

They're both great, but it comes down to comfort.

My hands are big, Long boned, and very flexible, the corner of the Glock slide drives directly into the bone of my thumb. There are aftermarket beavertails, but I DETEST sticking "things" onto my guns.

I Picked up the M&P .40 instead, and it just melts into my hand with the Large palmswell.

 

[Kiln]

The angle of the grip is the reason I got rid of my Glock 22 and picked up an XDM. For me the XDM sits better in my hand, balances, and points better. All the talk about the Glock's low bore axis, superior grip angle, and all the other "perfect" Glock features means very little when the gun points straight up for some of us when trying to draw from a holster.

A large percentage of people who dislike Glocks, cite this for the reason. Glocks are great if they fit you but are not great if they don't. The guys that Glocks work for are always claiming "perfection" but the rest of us are claiming "uncomfortable".

My G22 always fed, fired, and ejected reliably but never really fit me.

 

[The Man With No Name]

a
So, if it's not a problem for you and you did not see it then the problem do not exist?

That is flawed logic.

Glock not offering different grip angle is a proof that it is not a problem for anyone? Because what Glock does or does not do is a sole measure of that? Never mind that there are 3rd party industry making money out of Glock grip modification. Conveniently ignoring all the other comanies that do not follow Glock's grip angle. Is Glock the only company in existence that do research on ergonomics and customer needs?

I'm saying if it is a problem for a small (very small) minority then it is not the norm. That is not flawed logic.

The insignificant number of people doing grip mods (which according to you is not even possible because the feed system would have to be changed) does not make it a norm. The fact that other companies do not follow Glock's grip angle does not make it the norm. Too many people make too much out of grip angle. It is an issue in their minds that they then translate on to a target. How can I make it any clearer? No different than almost all mods done to Glocks other than sights. I was trying to find production numbers and the best I could come up with is that Glock showcased production numer 2 million at the 2000 SHOT show. Just 9 years later on the 2009 Glock annual the cover shows 4 million Glocks. I guess that is why they aren't following other manafacturers although many to this day still try to improve on what Glock did right to start with. How many USP's, M&P's, and other plastic fantastics all together in this time you think sold? Even close to the Glocks numbers? I know it's fashionable to hate something just because it is popular but sometimes something is popular for good reason. You may have a real issue but your issue is certainly not the norm and trying to convince yourself otherwise is fine but won't work with me.

 

[kcshooter]

You may have a real issue but your issue is certainly not the norm and trying to convince yourself otherwise is fine but won't work with me.

Considering the number of times I've seen here and in person the large number of people who feel the angle is less than ideal, you just blindly repeating "it's not a problem" and trying to convince yourself otherwise won't work with us.

The other problem I have with Glocks is the blinders of foolishness the fanboys seem to wear, touting the perfection and infallibility or their new favorite gun, and their ignorance to that fact that not every platform works for everyone, regardless of what that platform may be.

 

[TimboKhan]

Sigh...

Its my fault. I derailed this thread irretrievably. Here's the worst part: I don't even own a Glock anymore as I sold my 26 back to it's original owner. Fact is, I like 1911's and XD's and SR9's.

Anyway, it's my fault this went off the tracks, but its still getting closed for veering way off topic.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2