Can you over-compress black powder?

[Tallship]

I was re-loading some 45LC with Pyrodex P and screwed up the seating height. I had 35 grains in the cartridge and seated the bullet about 3/8 too low. Is there any problem firing the round? I've rammed down some 60 grain loads in my Walker till the lever stopped, but the reloading machine has much more pressure to it.

 

[J-Bar]

What bullet are you using that allows you to seat it so deeply and still have correct overall cartridge length? If you just made one, pull the bullet and adjust the seating die. After pondering awhile, I bet it will be ok.

 

[hawkeye74]

Pyrodex is not Black Powder but a substitute.

Both are supposed to be compressed lightly leaving little to no air gap. The problem shooting the round would be those associated with the bullet transitioning to the barrel. Less risk in a rifle, greater risk in a revolver.

Why not pull the bullet and re-use the components with everything properly set.

 

[damoc]

ive never used pyrodex but from what i understood it should not be compressed too much.

i have read that true black powder can be over compressed to the point of possible detonation but even if this is true it would be very hard to do with
a loading machine.

 

[junkman_01]

i have read that true black powder can be over compressed to the point of possible detonation

Where did you read that, because it just isn't true. Not with the guns or equipment that we use!

 

[49willys]

Isn't a black powder pellet just compressed black powder with some glue of some sort to hold it together?

 

[mykeal]

It's 777 that dislikes compression, not Pyrodex or black powder.

 

[Tallship]

It doesn't have the correct cartridge length (way too short), but because I'm shooting it in a SAA, it really doesn't matter. I guess I should just invest in a bullet puller.

 

[arcticap]

i have read that true black powder can be over compressed to the point of possible detonation

Where did you read that, because it just isn't true. Not with the guns or equipment that we use!

Perhaps damoc has read one of these posts.

1. Impact sensitivity is based on scientific testing

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8005619&postcount=29

2. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8004901&postcount=25

 

[Varmiter]

Compression effects combustion. End of story.

With commercial BP substitutes, compression appears to have little effect, but it does have an effect.

With real BP, compression has a much greater effect. With real BP, one has to decide what they want and act accordingly. Sounds simple, and therein is the problem.

Homemade BP comes out of the ball mill with the consistency of talcum powder. In this state, it is VERY EASILY IGNITED and due care is mandatory. From there, it is transferred to a compression die and put under several TONS pressure. The result is a thin hockey puck. In this state, it is VERY difficult to ignite, but if ignited, is VERY slow burning. It is the usage of various compression states, along with the addition of other chemicals for colors that is the basis for fireworks.

Now back to BP firearms. The hockey puck is broken up via screens/sieves to the desired granule (FFF) size. Compressing this charge has an effect. It is up to the individual to decide not only the granule size, but the compression of that granule.

Like anything else, there is always a trade off. Unless one is very careful, one can end up chasing their tail.

Chris

 

[junkman_01]

Perhaps damoc has read one of these posts.

1. Impact sensitivity is based on scientific testing

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8005619&postcount=29

2. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8004901&postcount=25

Articap,

With the equipment that we use in BP firearms loading, you cannot apply enough pressure to raise the temperature of the powder to ignite it. We have argued this before. It's TEMPERATURE that ignites the powder. We do not create enough pressure, friction or static to light it off.

 

[J-Bar]

I say put it in a Ruger and see what happens!

 

[damoc]

Where did you read that, because it just isn't true. Not with the guns or equipment that we use!

it was in a blackpowder reloading manual and if i remember correctly it was in reference to some US navy tests.

never realy believed i could achieve this with a loading lever anyway and i know that rockets are compressed to a very high degree to
prevent explosion so whatever the navy did in those tests ill never know

 

[kBob]

Hung up on nails above my reloading table is an inertia bullet puller.

Why risk anything based on internet "go aheads" when the results can be so expensive, painful, and permenant?

As a pistol reloader I bought my hammer type inertia bullet puller before I splurged on any sort of case trimmer or even carbide dies. As to the dies...I recently found out that a thirty year old plastic tube of die lube can degrade and crack open allowing the contents to soak stuff in your old reloading box full of non carbid or TI dies stored under the bench for the last 20 years.

I also find the inertia bullet puller useful for salvaging bullets from oil and lube spoiled ammunition. I have even pulled military rifle bullets by first driving the bullet a little way into the case to break the water proofing and or crimp.

-kBob

 

[junkman_01]

it was in a blackpowder reloading manual and if i remember correctly it was in reference to some US navy tests.

never realy believed i could achieve this with a loading lever anyway and i know that rockets are compressed to a very high degree to
prevent explosion so whatever the navy did in those tests ill never know

That's exactly the point I was making. Happy shooting!

 

[arcticap]

Where did you read that, because it just isn't true. Not with the guns or equipment that we use!

The original thread was about a discharge that occurred involving a muzzle loading rifle that was triple loaded where the middle & top charges went off when the third ball was partially pulled out and then rammed back down. The powder was old and causing ignition problems. Mad Monk is a reputable expert in the commercial manufacture of black powder. He describes the known impact sensitivity of black powder, and warns about the use of old powder. The equipment could be as simple as a ramrod, and while all the facts and circumstances that led to the discharge may not be fully understood, it's possible that some black powder is impact sensitive enough that the loading equipment that's typically used can set it off.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the warnings about black powder aren't true.

Shooting accident!!

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2793.0

 

[junkman_01]

I do not believe you. Enough said.

 

[AABEN]

ive never used pyrodex but from what i understood it should not be compressed too much.

i have read that true black powder can be over compressed to the point of possible detonation but even if this is true it would be very hard to do with
a loading machine.

All black powder is to be compressed !! That goes also for any powder that replaces black powder!!

 

[AABEN]

The original thread was about a discharge that occurred involving a muzzle loading rifle that was triple loaded where the middle & top charges went off when the third ball was partially pulled out and then rammed back down. The powder was old and causing ignition problems. Mad Monk is a reputable expert in the commercial manufacture of black powder. He describes the known impact sensitivity of black powder, and warns about the use of old powder. The equipment could be as simple as a ramrod, and while all the facts and circumstances that led to the discharge may not be fully understood, it's possible that some black powder is impact sensitive enough that the loading equipment that's typically used can set it off.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the warnings about black powder aren't true.

Shooting accident!!

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2793.0

That is why you use a brass jig when loading with a wood rod or a fiberglass one!

 

[junkman_01]

I've slammed BP with a hammer on concrete and on my bench vise and could not get it to ignite. I have proved to myself that BP is not very impact sensitive. It takes heat to ignite it, plain and simple.

 

[J-Bar]

Hey, Tallship,

Have you shot the damn thing yet???

I bet it went bang just fine.

 

[Tallship]

No, I haven't shot it yet. I'm going to borrow a buddie's 94 clone and see what happens.