H777 in Remington .44/ Colt Pocket .36

[mec]

A two-pronged approach having opposit effects. I started out light with 28 grains/vol. equivalent in the .44 seating to the full extent of the lever-reaching the powder column with slight compression. It was spasmodic. At 35 grains the load found its balance. seating was about half of the loading stem for a "firm" ( whatever that means on any given day) seat on top the powder.

As a matter of interest, Pyrodex P with 28 grains/vol equivalent clocked 848 with 52 fps extreme spread. On other occasions, 35 grof Swiss 3f has driven the same ball to 1089 fpx with 33 fps spread.`

Bates got his spasmodic readings with the heavier 12.5 Grain charge trying firm and then less firm pressure on the loading lever for the two strings. Both sucked. He then followed the exact opposit path I had taken with the .55 and loaded the small Pocket Model chambers with 10 gr/ vol equivalent and the same approximate seating pressure he had used on his first string with the heavier charge. With basically opposit approaches, we arrived at consistent loads and are still confused.

 

[Manyirons]

Good posting and information. 777 odd in behavior, when i use this propellent (With frequency) it is always with a primer-charge of Swiss NullB, 4F or 3F whatever is handy as it seems to make no difference.

This is done with the .3cc (Smallest) lee dipper, loading the Swiss first into chamber. My conjecture is that velocity fluctuations are diminished due to better ignition.

I load my cylinders on the gunsmith supplied arbor press, there is a HEAVY spring between rammer and column, this limits force and pressure. Ball or bullet cannot due to limitations be seated more than .125 inch below chamber mouth, no matter how light the charge.

 

[georgeduz]

thats why i stick with black powder.

 

[mec]

Well, one dang'ol thang. H777 is pretty far down my list of revolver fuel. Works good in single shots though.

 

[georgeduz]

mec i do enjoy reading ur threads,

 

[Beartracker]

"mec i do enjoy reading ur threads"

georgeduz, I sure do agree with you on that one. The boy sure seems to know his stuff! Now if we can just get him to write another book......

 

[mec]

This one is barely off the ground and I've already come up with stuff I'd like to add to a second addition. Maybe I'll revise and expand it after a while. If I do, the picture technology will still be kind of rough but I'll make sure they reproduce them bigger so you don't need a magnifying glass to read the imbedded script.

 

[Steve499]

I've got one of the Uberti .36 pocket navies on order from Dixie. I read somewhere, either here or on TFL, that the .36s seemed to generally shoot better without a wad between the powder and ball while the .44s seemed to generally shoot better with one. Not that it's a real burning question, you understand, because I will have to try everything myself just to see, but what about that?

I want mec to post here and on TFL where he's going to be on his book tour/signing.

Steve

 

[mec]

book signings have mainly been impromptu, off a tailgate.

Gatefeo has used underwads a lot more than I have and is sold on them. He finds they reduce fouling.Both he and Elmer Keith use felt with Keith cutting up old hats to produce the wads. Some other's use them for hunting-walking around loads to avoid the mess from top lubricant. I've used them a bit and find no real advantage or disadvantage. One lemat I had actually recorded lower velocities with wonder wads than with the same load without them. Other .44s have produced no velocity variations with or without.

I don't find any difference in accuracy with 36 or .44 but I suspect results will vary from gun to gun and according to the loading techniques of the individual shooter.

 

[Low Key]

In my 1858 Remington 44, As a matter of personal preference, I use a dry vegetable fiber wad (I bought a box of 1000 from cabela's) then put just a bit of bore butter over the top of it and then seat the ball on top of that. My own experience is that it helps a great deal in keeping the fouling soft and prevents the cylinder from sticking and binding up.
A lot of others like lube over the ball instead, and if thats what works best for you then thats the best route to go, but I'm sold on the lube under the ball method for my 44.

 

[mec]

Beartracker does pretty much the same thing and is able to get 40 grains of 3f under a ball in his remington. I suspect the lubricant under the bullet is a big advantage there.

 

[Low Key]

Yep, I stole the idea from him! I also do the 40 grain loads and I agree with you that the lube under the ball is an advantage in gettin that sucker to seat in the cylinder. I think it has also helped in getting my barrel seasoned more quickly, it takes a lot less cleaning now and generally two or three patches gets the bore completely clean of fouling.

 

[mec]

I've been going on about how h777 doesn't seem to foul very much. the other day, we shot quite a bit of it and had to remove a real crust from the barrel- even a bit from the remington base pin- though it never got so bad as to make the gun sluggish.

 

[Low Key]

I've been through about 3/4 of a pound of the 777 with my 58 and I shoot goex as well and the biggest difference I notice about the fouling is that with the 777 there isn't much of it from a couple of cylinders shot, but it seems to be denser than regular BP fouling even though you can spit on it and wipe it off the gun. The BP fouling seems to stay softer, even though there is more of it.

 

[Dave A]

What is a safe powder charge?

I have a .44 cal New Army 1858 from Cabelas and am wondering about
what the maximum safe load is behind a .451 ball. I currently load 25 gr.
of Pyrodex P, a 1/8" felt wad and the ball. This leaves the ball way down in
chamber and makes putting any kind of lube like Crisco into the chamber an
invitation to an obstructed bore. Additional wads would make up the difference as would more powder or some combination thereof in an attempt to bring the ball closer to the front face of the cylinder. Any help on this topic will be
greatly appreciated.

Dave A

 

[mec]

I've used 35 grains of Pyrodex P and Black powder and others here have stuff in 40. The 40 grain load and ball fills up the chamber right to the top. The general, just about universally published belief is that it is impossible to get enough black powder or substitute into a revolver chamber to raise pressures to a dangerous level.

I'm sure that such a blanket statement is an invitation to an argument but I believe it and act accordingly.

 

[mec]

I've used 35 grains of Pyrodex P and Black powder and others here have stuff in 40. The 40 grain load and ball fills up the chamber right to the top. The general, just about universally published belief is that it is impossible to get enough black powder or substitute into a revolver chamber to raise pressures to a dangerous level.

I'm sure that such a blanket statement is an invitation to an argument but I believe it and act accordingly.

 

[Low Key]

mec has far more experience and knowledge about BP shooting than I do and he knows what he is talking about. I do know that 40 grains of fffg blackpowder will fill the chamber nearly to the top and with a wad and ball over that you still have room for a little grease over the ball after you have rammed everything down in the chamber. That is the max load that I personally use, I accidentally loaded 45 grains of BP once (boy was that hard to get the ball seated on top of) but it shot accurately and no damage to the pistol. I think that 25-30 grains is a good target load and you can put a little corn meal on top of the powder to take up space so the ball doesn't sit so far down in the chamber.

 

[Dave A]

Safe powder load

Mec, lowkey, thanks for the info
Dave A

 

[Gatofeo]

I have been able to get 40 grs. of Goex FFFG black powder in my Uberti-made copy of the 1858 Remington.
To do so, I rap the charged cylinder softly with my knuckles to settle the powder. I use NO lubricated wad and seat a .454 inch ball. A loading stand helps immensely to seat the ball flush or slightly below flush of the chamber mouth.
It's a fearsome load, too. I haven't chronographed it but I'd guess it's pushing that ball at well over 1,000 fps. I've fired it at long range, out to 300 yards, and it makes a nice dust-thunk at that range.

Yep, I'm sold on felt wads under the ball, too. I generally load my Remington with 30 grs. of FFFG to allow room for the wad. Rather sold on the lubricant recipe I discovered in an old magazine and have been using for a few years now. I'm convinced that sheep tallow is the best tallow to use, bar none.
Oh well, to each his own. Mec does an outstanding job of relating his experiences and experiments. The photos often help a great deal, too.
I was unaware that Mec was writing a book. When it's out, let me know. I'd like to get an autographed copy.
Imagine the look on my face when I opened it and saw, "To Gatofeo. Mutton tallow is for weenies! --- Mec"

 

[mec]

Yeh, Well wait until you open the fly and see Gatofeo the ugly cat as one of the acknowlegements and then see able research Gatofeo cited in the Dragoon section.

I tried to e-mail you and send you a copy as soon as it came out but couldn't get through. Private message me with a ground address.

 

[Steve499]

Dave A, a few posts back you said something about putting lube over a deeply seated ball being an invitation to a bore obstruction. I have been filling my chamber mouths with lube, regardless of how deeply seated the ball was, for years. Sometimes a glob of lube will hit the target or backing all the way out at 25 yards with enough force to look like a bullet hole. Gets my vocabulary exercised, thinking I had a really, really bad flyer in the group until I get up there to check it closer. I had never thought about the possibility of obstructing the bore with lube since it would be moving ahead of the ball and at the same speed. If lube was actually stopped, say halfway up the bore and then along came the ball I could see it maybe ruining your day. Any input about this, anyone?

Steve

 

[Father Knows Best]

I used to use a lot of 777 in .44-40 and .44 Special cartridges that I loaded for cowboy shooting. I used it primarily because I didn't have the means to cast or lube bullets (other than the messy and time consuming pan-lubing method), and 777 was supposedly formulated for use with cheap commercially available wax-lubed bullets.

I found that bore cleanup was quite difficult -- much more difficult than when I used Goex black powder. My unscientific opinion is that the stubborn fouling in the bores was the result of the wax lube on the bullets mixing with the soot and other combustion products. With standard water-soluble black powder lubes, the fouling dissolved and washed out easily. The wax content in the fouling, however, made scrubbing and the use of solvents necessary.

I also found some wildly inconsistent velocities the one time I chrono'ed 777 loads. I was using Circle Fly fiber wads under the bullets to eliminate air space, as a full case of even FFg 777 was too potent for cowboy action. Even with the fiber wads, I got ES numbers in excess of 100 for five shot strings. While the consistency was probably still adequate for cowboy shooting (big targets, up close), it was disconcerting.

I bit the bullet (so to speak) and bought a Star Lube-Sizer. I now buy rough cast bullets, and size and lube them myself using a black powder lube. With real black powder in the case, I get much better results than I ever did with 777 or APP.

 

[Burt Blade]

Black Powder is more consistant with fairly strong compression. Seat the ball firmly and consistantly.

Triple Seven should have little to almost no compression. Seat the ball gently and consistantly.

Either one requires consistant pressure for consistant results. Folks who compete with blackpowder rifles use a sliding weight on a ramrod, called a Kadootie, to get the pressure the same each time.

This is much harder to accomplish with the built-in ram on a revolver.