Canadian Lend-Lease Smith and Wesson 38/200 revolver

[Von der Goltz]

Here for your perusal is Smith&Wesson Canadian Lend-lease revolver Serial #943947 chambered in 38 S&W (.380/200), 5 barrel with an excellent, bright bore. This revolver has matching numbers on the frame, cylinder, yoke, extractor, and barrel. The revolver has a US Ordnance Flaming Bomb on the butt with C (Broad Arrow) Canadian property stamp just behind, as well as on the left side of the frame at the knuckle just behind the hammer. The smooth walnut grips are numbered on the interior: 94347. The C arrow under Made in USA is the Canadian ownership mark, C Broad Arrow. On the butt strap are found the serial number, the initials WB for the US Army ordnance officer Col. Waldemar Broberg, the US flaming bomb ordnance mark and the P proof stamps.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Here for your perusal is Smith&Wesson Canadian Lend-lease revolver Serial #943947 chambered in 38 S&W (.380/200), 5 barrel with an excellent, bright bore. This revolver has matching numbers on the frame, cylinder, yoke, extractor, and barrel. The revolver has a US Ordnance Flaming Bomb on the butt with C (Broad Arrow) Canadian property stamp just behind, as well as on the left side of the frame at the knuckle just behind the hammer. The smooth walnut grips are numbered on the interior: 94347. The C arrow under Made in USA is the Canadian ownership mark, C Broad Arrow. On the butt strap are found the serial number, the initials WB for the US Army ordnance officer Col. Waldemar Broberg, the US flaming bomb ordnance mark and the P proof stamps.]

One of my all-time favorite handguns in general. Add a Broad Arrow and I'd have found it hard to pass on.

I assume it has not been .38 Specialized? One of mine has been and another not.

I'm weirdly queer for broad arrows on most anything; guns, knives, compasses, tape measures..... Spitfires - anything!

Todd.

 

[Von der Goltz]

No it hasn't been converted to .38 Special; this 38/200 ammo chambers perfectly. Just got the pistol and haven't shot it yet due to prolonged cold weather; will post range report when I do shoot it,

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

No it hasn't been converted to .38 Special; this 38/200 ammo chambers perfectly. Just got the pistol and haven't shot it yet due to prolonged cold weather; will post range report when I do shoot it,


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Sweet round to shoot and re-load for.

I like pinging relatively mild steel with them. I found an old galvanized trash can that they will neither penetrate nor catastrophically ricochet from. Grand fun banging divots into it with that round.

Todd.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

No it hasn't been converted to .38 Special; this 38/200 ammo chambers perfectly. Just got the pistol and haven't shot it yet due to prolonged cold weather; will post range report when I do shoot it,


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Have you found yet a Sold-out-of-Service (facing broad arrows) mark or commercial proof mark on the revolver? Most every piece of lend-lease equipment I've seen has both an acceptance mark and a sold-from-service mark. I do have a lend-lease .380/200 S&W Hand Ejector with neither an acceptance mark nor a separation mark but, the British regulations do specify it is not mandatory for all property to pheon marked, unless it is property which is subject to theft. A very nice revolver, indeed!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Here for your perusal is Smith&Wesson Canadian Lend-lease revolver Serial #943947 chambered in 38 S&W (.380/200), 5 barrel with an excellent, bright bore. This revolver has matching numbers on the frame, cylinder, yoke, extractor, and barrel. The revolver has a US Ordnance Flaming Bomb on the butt with C (Broad Arrow) Canadian property stamp just behind, as well as on the left side of the frame at the knuckle just behind the hammer. The smooth walnut grips are numbered on the interior: 94347. The C arrow under Made in USA is the Canadian ownership mark, C Broad Arrow. On the butt strap are found the serial number, the initials WB for the US Army ordnance officer Col. Waldemar Broberg, the US flaming bomb ordnance mark and the P proof stamps.
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I gotta ask it. "Where Does He Get All Those Wonderful Toys??!"

 

[Tallball]

That is a beautiful piece.

Congratulations!

 

[Riomouse911]

Sweet! Excellent find . I hadn’t seen that Canadian proof mark or the twin arrows before, thank you both for the education.

I surely hope that beauty is unaltered. I bought a Victory “ .38 Special” that was a bubbaed .up 38 S&W rather than a genuine.38 Spl. That’s a modification that I quickly found out turned a cool war surplus handgun into a useless paperweight.

Stay safe.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Very nice. Speaking of S&W revolvers with the Canadian Broad Arrow.....

A number of years ago I bought what I was told was a S&W 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model. This is the model that came out after the Triple Lock, without the third latch or the large under barrel lug. Like the Triple Lock, it was chambered for 44 Special. But something did not seem quite right. There was no serial number marking on the underside of the barrel, just a diamond shaped mark. This revolver did have what I later learned was the Canadian Broad Arrow on the left side of the frame. Some folks at the Smith and Wesson Forum suggested it was a 455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model that had been sent to Canada, and later converted to 44 Special. I had it lettered, and they were correct.

This revolver shipped as a 455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model on February 26, 1916 and was delivered to the Canadian government in Ottawa. The letter indicated it shipped with checkered gold medallion grips and a butt swivel.








Here is the Canadian Broad Arrow on the left side of the frame.






Here is the butt swivel and a British style proof mark.






.455 is not a very common cartridge here in the states, and a lot of these revolvers were converted to 45 Colt or 44 Special with a new barrel and cylinder when they made their way back into the US.






If the revolver had left the factory with this barrel, the Serial Number would have been stamped on the flat of the underside of the barrel. The diamond shaped mark indicates this revolver went back to Smith and Wesson for rework, and the lack of a SN indicates this is not the original barrel.






I don't mind that it did not originally ship as a 44 HE 2nd Model, I like the gun anyway. And it shoots fine as a 44 Special.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

This revolver shipped as a 455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model on February 26, 1916 and was delivered to the Canadian government in Ottawa. The letter indicated it shipped with checkered gold medallion grips and a butt swivel.


If the revolver had left the factory with this barrel, the Serial Number would have been stamped on the flat of the underside of the barrel. The diamond shaped mark indicates this revolver went back to Smith and Wesson for rework, and the lack of a SN indicates this is not the original barrel.

I don't mind that it did not originally ship as a 44 HE 2nd Model, I like the gun anyway. And it shoots fine as a 44 Special.

Man, but that'd be fun busting up firewood around a campsite. What a beaut!

Todd.

 

[J-Bar]

Please educate me on the 38/200. I know they were made for the British but I don't know anything about the 38/200 (.380/200?) cartridge itself. It must be different from a .38 Special case with a heavy bullet. What is involved in converting a .38/200 to shoot .38 Special? I do not own one and do not plan to do such a conversion, just curious from the discussions above. Thanks if you care to.

 

[kBob]

It is the shorter/ older pre Special .38 of top breaks loaded with a 200 grain bullet( rather than the 146 US standard) in its original acceptance but usually found with a metal jacketed 174 grain bullet in actual British WWII service.

-kBob

 

[Von der Goltz]

No Sold-out-of -service or Commercial proof marks on pistol. The .38/200 was a British military revolver cartridge identical to Smith & Wesson's .38 S&W cartridge but with specific loadings for military service. The .38 S&W was modified for use by the British military and called the .38/200 (also known as 380/200 Revolver Mk I) in 1922 for .38 caliber pistols and revolvers (such as the Enfield No. 2 Mk I and Webley Mk IV) which replaced the larger .455 and .476 inch handguns. The .38/200 cartridge was initially issued to British military forces as the .380/200 Revolver Mk I round. British authorities later issued a different .38 S&W military cartridge with a lighter, 178–180-grain (12 g) jacketed bullet, known as the .380 Revolver Mk IIz. Revolvers chambered for .38/200 may also fire .38 S&W (AKA .38/145), .38 Police Positive, and .38 Banker's Special cartridges, along with the .380" Mk IIz round, though caution should be exercised as always when using ammunition designed for more modern guns to different specifications. (Wikia.org).

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Please educate me on the 38/200. I know they were made for the British but I don't know anything about the 38/200 (.380/200?) cartridge itself. It must be different from a .38 Special case with a heavy bullet. What is involved in converting a .38/200 to shoot .38 Special? I do not own one and do not plan to do such a conversion, just curious from the discussions above. Thanks if you care to.

Howdy

The 38/200 cartridge was/is a version of the 38S&W cartridge, as opposed to the 38 Special. The 38/200 was a standard British service cartridge using a 200 grain bullet. The commercial 38S&W ammo I have on my shelf has bullets ranging in weight from 145 to 148 grains.

Picture is worth a thousand words department.

On the left in this photo is a modern 38 S&W, on the right is a modern 38 Special. The key factor here is the bullet and case of the 38S&W are slightly larger in diameter than a 38 Special. Bullet diameter for the 38 S&W is .360, as opposed to the .357 diameter of a 38 Special bullet. The cartridge case of the 38 S&W is also slightly larger in diameter than a 38 Special cartridge case. Rechambering 38/200 Victory models to 38 Special was quite common after the war. The problem is when the 38 S&W chamber is lengthened to accommodate the longer 38 Special case, the rear of the chamber will still be the larger diameter for the 38S&W cartridge. This can result in 38 Special case expanding or even rupturing when fired.






S&W developed the 38 S&W cartridge for the Top Break 38 Single Action 1st Model, also known as the Baby Russian model. This model was first produced in 1876. This one is an early one, it shipped in 1876.






Smith and Wesson developed the 38 Special cartridge in 1899 for the 38 Military and Police revolver, or Model of 1899, in 1899. Because S&W developed the cartridge, they always mark 38 S&W Special on their barrels, but it is the same as 38 Special.

 

[J-Bar]

Thanks for the thorough education!

 

[Von der Goltz]

Here for your perusal is my WWI British/Canadian Contract .455 Smith & Wesson H-E pistol serial number 17464. According to the Smith & Wesson letter this revolver was shipped from their factory on September 23, 1915 and delivered to Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Company, New York City, agents for the British Government. Note that each chamber in the cylinder is individually proofed. It has British inspection mark just above S&W medallion and the Canadian C/Broad Arrow mark below cylinder release. Any ideas about the unit marking on the backstrap?

 

[AK103K]

I have three guns in 38/200. Two S&W Victories and an Enfield. The one S&W is parked and has a Highlanders unit marking on the backstrap (top), the other looks to be an Australian gun and has a black painted finish (bottom). It appears the painted gun went through a "factory through repair", as it has the FTR stamp on it.

All are fun guns to shoot. But the S&W's are the better shooters.



I load for the round and if youre looking to get one, its about the only way to be able to get the right load.

Its also bout the only way youll likely be able to shoot it much. Factory 38 S&W is salty when you find it, and that was before the panic. When I picked up the Enfield, I didnt have a 38 S&W and wanted to shoot it. Took going to three shops just to find one box, and it was 146 grain Remington "target" ammo, at $35 a box of 50.

I ordered a bunch of Starline brass and once you have the brass, its reasonable to load for. Matts Bullets has a couple of versions of the 200 grain Webley bullets. Ive been using the early MKII version, and with good results.

One thing that struck me the first time I picked the loaded box up was, it felt like I was picking up a box of 45acp, and not a box of "38's". The 200 grain bullets are big, and take up almost as much of the inside of the case as you see outside.

This is the 38/200 with a 200 grain Matts Webley MKII bullet vs a 158 grain 38 Special for comparison...


From what Ive read, the Brits were pretty devious with the load, and the round, while not the powerhouse we Americans seem to need, it seems that the slow moving heavy bullet does some nasty things in the body as it moves through, especially if it hits bone. Dont know about that, but they seem to shoot very well and to POA of the sights.

I have loaded and shot some 357 LSWC's in both the S&W and Enfield, and they shot OK too, but seemed to shoot low for the sights at 10 yards.

If youre looking for one, Id suggest taking a 38 Special with you, or if youre in a shop, ask them to see if it will chamber. If it does, I would walk and keep looking.

 

[Waveski]

If youre looking for one, Id suggest taking a 38 Special with you, or if youre in a shop, ask them to see if it will chamber. If it does, I would walk and keep looking.

Very good advice. Would have saved me some grief a number of years back.
Live and learn.