candystriping

[surferdaddy]

I had a bit of a legal question after a discussion with a buddy, a fellow firearm enthusiast. I am quite fond of a couple of varieties of 9mm defense loads, federal hst 147 and Winchester pdx1 124gr +p. I thought I would try to utilize the attributes of both rounds by"Dutch loading" them both in my magazines. My friend claims that he heard once that in a legal defense situation, this sort of thing could be spun as a blood lust for maximum lethality. Have any of you ever heard of this or think that he may have a valid point? I could see a situation where I may have to fire through glass our something to defend my family our myself whereby the hst's barrier breeching abilities would come in handy. However, the all out power of a +p 124 gr is hard to dispute.

 

[Rob G]

Could it be argued in court? Sure. Would it be effective? No idea. Remember that a prosecuter can argue just about anything they want. It's your attorney's job to present your side of it and argue that essentially the prosecution is wrong. So far as I know though, excepting for situations were ballistics evidence is relevant to the case, or the bullets in question were illegal, the type of bullets in the gun have never been at issue.

For the record, in my HD shotgun most of the rounds are OO buck followed by a couple slugs. I work under the theory that the buckshot should handle 99% of all situations I'll likely come across and that in the event that it's not enough, well there's a slug or two in there as well at the bottom of the mag. I've never been worried about explaining that to a jury. I think my argument would be "Well, I shot him five times with buckshot and he was still coming at me, but that slug on the other hand...that stopped him."

 

[Shadow 7D]

Ok, anything and everything has according to
'gun shop lore'
and
'internet rumor'
been used to convict someone is a self-defense trial
and legally just about anything is admissible in court, and hence could be used
a good legal team will shut it down, BUT...

I'm not a lawyer (I'd do the acronym but I see you are new)
dutch load has a number of things against it, among others, different types and bullet weights shoot to different points of impact, recoil (and hence reset) is different etc.

The general gold standard is to use what ever type of ammo the local cops use, so if you ever did end up in court you can say

"well, after a lot of research I found out that *local LE*, and state agencies and this *big city or well known LEA* uses this ammo because it is a consistent performer that has met their stringent standards"

and dutch load is for the indecisive, it's better to have one type of ammo that you know how it works than try to figure out if your next round may or may not penetrate (I'd suggest retreat, since in a SD situation, if the guy is hunkered, it's an opportunity to leave) and if you do have to barrier shoot, well, someone else will come along and explain it.

think of it this way, prosecutor asks 'why did you shoot him so many times'
response (or the fishing he wants)
I didn't know if I'd hit him with HP or ball...

BTW, I have never seen a case that I have looked up or posted online (and it has been challenged here and NO ONE could produce ONE) case were a good SD shoot was convicted on his use of ammo.

So to summarize
dutch load, not a good idea
legal issues, could be, but.... most of it is paranoid BS

 

[SwissArmyDad]

Gosh, I get so tired of hearing the alternating ammo thing. Pick an effective round, train with it, get good with it and stick to it.

ONLY disclaimer is if you're a shotgunner, to possibly have a couple slug rounds (if this isn't your choice for primary ammo) in a side saddle or buttsock cuff to deal with special situations like de-hinging a door (very effective if an earthquake or tornado has racked a house and jammed a door shut preventing egress out of a main door) or possibly putting down a bruin in bear country.

 

[CWL]

With pistol rounds, you will find that one won't perform much differently that any other bullet manufactured for that caliber. Rather than "cocktail loading" your pistola in hopes that it will make someone deader, your focus should be on regular training so that you can hit your target if you need to, even under high stress.

You really think that it will matter what the bullet is if you put a bullet through your target's heart or brainpan?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Cleaning your gun to increase the chance of it actually working can be used against you in court, claiming that you were "obsessed" with the idea of shooting someone. My uncle's ex-wife's son who failed out of law school told me it was true.

 

[Shadow 7D]

That's funny Lawyer talk for...
BS rumor, that has parts of the truth
after all you had a gun
you knew how to use said gun
does not that make you a 'obsessed' gun nut???

 

[danez71]

Cleaning your gun to increase the chance of it actually working can be used against you in court, claiming that you were "obsessed" with the idea of shooting someone. My uncle's ex-wife's son who failed out of law school told me it was true.

Thats funny.


I dont put one snow tire, one mud tire, one rain tire, and one high mileage tire on my truck because it may see a variety of terrain and conditions.

I buy one complete set that I feel will best meet the needs of the variety of situations and conditions I will more than likely be in.

Same with ammo. I buy what I feel will best meet the needs of the variety of situations and conditions I will more than likely be in.

 

[surferdaddy]

Sooooo, what you are all saying is I'm an indecisive dork who should just go get wwb and call it a day.

 

[writerinmo]

WWB will never get used in any firearm that I own. When they drop out of the end of the barrel and land at my feet, two rounds in one box of 100, that's enough for me to stop using them.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, It may be OK for basic range practice
BUT, I would suggest that you call your local police training department and ask what they use, then do the same for sheriff and do the same for the staties.

Then go read about the ammo (and realize that they buy by putting out a contract and letting those that qualify bid Ie. lowest bidder)

Right now HST is good, golden saber is nice, Hornady has a nice line (check out their zombie killer ammo, gee's that'd be a prosecutor's wet dream if they were a foaming anti)

 

[danez71]

Sooooo, what you are all saying is I'm an indecisive dork who should just go get wwb and call it a day.

No, not at all. I didnt mean my statement that way.

IMO, on the surface it sounds great. But.....


Lets say you did do it. (exaggerating) You need to shoot thru something but your super expando round is in the chamber. Now what?


Anyone can shoot holes in your theories or plans. Do what works and makes you feel good.


That was my point in all of the diferent tires. If you encountered a patch of snow with true 4wd... it would be a hassle (at least) to try to make sure you put the 1 snow tire on it and if had to get all 4 tires on it.... the other 3 tires are far less than ideal.


In other words, you need to load you mags with all terrain ammo (wink).

 

[Sport45]

I thought this was going to be a guns for candystripers thread. I was wondering what they carried.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Remember that a prosecuter can argue just about anything they want. It's your attorney's job to present your side of it and argue that essentially the prosecution is wrong.

+1. And remember the plaintiff's attorney for the civil action will paint an even bloodier picture.

Ideally, you should be carrying the same gun and ammo that the bailiff at your future trial () is carrying: prosecutor tries to paint you as bloodthirsty, your lawyer calls the bailiff to testify about his "bloodthirsty" ammo and gun.

But we don't live in an ideal world. Many do choose to carry what their local PD does--and many more choose not to. Make sure you can articulate a good reason for what you do, in case anyone in the future will ask with your freedom or life's savings on the line.

Point to consider: does ANY civilian or military armed force alternate rounds for small arms (yeah, yeah, tracer rounds--besides that)? If not, your judgment on this point may seem suspect or eccentric...and that might impeach your judgment in general.

 

[surferdaddy]

Yeah, you've all got some good points. I'm just ocd and always think I'll be in a situation whereby I'll need what I don't have. What ifs really bug me. (anyone know where I can get silver bullets?)

 

[mashaffer]

I am thinking, pick something that you know will give you adequate penetration and function as close to 100% as possible in your gun and then practice, practice, practice. JMHO.

mike

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Like a previous poster I (too) am not a lawyer (abbrev. IANAL), so these remarks are purely a layman's observations. Would alternating hollowpoint and solid or FMJ in the magazine ("candy striping") be an issue in a self-defense shooting? I suspect it would depend alot on the circumstances.

In most cases, ammo or gun used is seldomn an issue in the criminal court view of a clean, justifiable shoot. If due to any questions about the justification for the shoot or the actual jeopardy presented by the person shot, the case can end up in civil court with wider rules of evidence. That is where questions about "unusual gun" or "unusual ammunition" are usually raised.

In what has been cited as a worst case scenario in self defense (the 1992 Louisiana shooting of Hattori by Peairs), Peairs was acquitted in criminal court (the jury decided a reasonable person could be in fear of life or limb), but found liable in civil court for wrongful death in part because the attorney for the plaintiff made an issue of the Peairs ' laser sighted magnum handgun: "The gun was also out of line with the type one would use to defend one's home." (Hattori mistakenly approached the wrong house seeking a Halloween party; Peairs was mistaken as to the actual level of jeopardy presented by Hattori.)

 

[Loosedhorse]

Funny you should mention Hattori and Peairs. For the record, I do think Peairs was reckless, and that the criminal acquittal and civil judgment were just.

However, the only villian in the entire affair was probably ex-FBI profiler Robert Ressler, who testified against Peairs. He gives details of his testimony in his book, I Have Lived in the Monster. If you want to get frightened about what goes on in a civil trial, please read the chapter on Peairs.

It is an eye-opener. For instance, Ressler simultaneously argues the .44 Magnum is too wimpy (didn't have the "knockdown power" that Peairs said he bought it for, as a deer-hunting gun; a shotgun would have been better for hunting and home defense), and also too powerful ("overkill" for a self-defense gun). Also argues that the pistol was probably too small for Hattori to see.

Hey, hat's off. It's an adversarial system, and Ressler did what he was paid to do--well done. It's his presenting his slanted view as the Truth that is bothersome.

And should give us all pause regarding the Ressler we might eventually meet.

Peairs was mistaken as to the actual level of jeopardy presented by Hattori

I think Peairs was reckless not so much in his assessment as in his tactics. Had he (instead of going out on his porch and confronting Hattori) locked his front door, called the police, and only fired if Hattori was breaking down his door, no one would have died that day, IMHO.