Cane for self defense? Please explain......

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Knives aren't bad, you should carry a knife along with your stick but realize that the stick offers better reach than any knife plus it is non-lethal when blows are focused on the limbs. The only real advantage a knife offers is in really close when you are wrestling with an opponant and can't strike with a stick. The kicker is that a knife wielding attacker has to pass through stick range before he can use his knife and if you see him comming his chances are very slim if you know what you are doing. I have proved this many times by challenging students to "stab" me with a rubber training knife before I could whack them with a boffer. No one has yet. I hit them at least once, usually somewhere on their knife forearm, on the head or sidestep and take out a knee if they charge.
 
I have proved this many times by challenging students to "stab" me with a rubber training knife before I could whack them with a boffer.
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While stabbing is the technique most likely to be lethal when using a knife, anyone who tries, as a first resort, to stab a person wielding a contact weapon (especially one with significantly longer reach than his) is unlikely to be successful unless his opponent is unskilled and perhaps unlucky as well.

If I had a knife and I were attacked by someone wielding a stick, I would never start out by trying to stab them.

It takes a lot of skill and probably some luck to successfully stab someone who's defending or attacking with a contact weapon without being seriously injured in the process. It's much safer to mess up their hands. From a defender's perspective when up against someone with only a contact weapon, it's a very effective tactic.

If the attacker is using a stick with a two hand hold, that makes things easier and the harder/slicker the stick is, the better it is for the man with the knife. The blade will have a tendency to slide down the stick to the wielder's fingers/hands.
 
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JohnSA said:
If I had a knife and I were attacked by someone wielding a stick, I would never start out by trying to stab them.
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So how would you close the distiance to where you could employ your knife?
 
Nobody wants to get cut and brandishing one can truly make a guy rethink whether or not he wants to be in arms length of you.
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I won't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, but this is absolutely wrong. Brandishing a knife is stupid, stupid, stupid. If you employ a knife, the recipient should never know you have a knife until it's in play.

Owen, you DON'T want to close the distance. As the defender, distance is good. Canes are good, because they allow you to keep distance. A knife is only the best choice if the distance has already been closed.

Owen, with my staff (which weighed close to 5 lbs), I started out slowly, and gradually built up speed.

John
 
Attacking someone you see is holding a knife is stupid, stupid, stupid, if you ask me. But if you're willing to explain I'll listen.
 
You know, I have a flight out in hopefully an hour, and I have to go. Ask anyone with experience- hso is a good one- and you'll get plenty of info.

J
 
There are three places that you can be in relation to a stick wielding attacker when all you have is a knife.

The first and best is far enough away that you are out of his reach, preferably in the next county. Unfortunately that may not be an option.

The second and worst distance is where he can hit with his stick but you can’t reach him with your knife. A stick fighter who knows how to side step and circle can keep you right out on the end of his power point and make you play his game.

The third distance is in close, so close that the opponent is too crammed up to effectively use his weapon but you can still use yours. You see this principle all the time in boxing when one fighter gets in trouble and hugs his opponent in order to tie him up and make his punches ineffective.

This is the only hope you have when using a knife against a stick. Get inside and make him play your game. You simply can’t swap stabs against swings when the opponent’s weapon gives him a two foot reach advantage. Either get inside or outside. If you get caught in that middle range on the end of his stick you are done.
 
Okay, I didn't make my flight- for the 2nd day in a row- so let's talk this out.

A knife, by definition, is a lethal weapon. Sure, it can easily be used in a non-lethal way, but the very employment of the knife against a human is considered lethal force, whether it's fatal, or not. When, exactly, would you brandish a knife to stop an attack? Lethal force can only be lawfully used to stop death or serious injury.

Is a potential attacker (apparently) unarmed? Well, then, you're breaking the law by brandishing. If he's not unarmed, what weapon does a knife trumps? He must not be close, if you have distance to brandish. The potential attacker may then get off scot free if he produces a firearm and shoots the brandisher's idiotic butt.

Is the attacker holding a stick? Well, a stick is much less likely to be considered a lethal weapon, to begin with. Brandishing a knife to an attacker who already has a weapon with longer reach is, again, silly. All you're doing is letting him know you can hurt him if he gets too close and careless. You've just upped his vigilance.

The only place for a defensive blade is when an attacker is unaware of it. Brandishing a knife is practically begging to be shot.
 
Is the attacker holding a stick? Well, a stick is much less likely to be considered a lethal weapon,
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One of the most disturbing sights I have ever seen was a dead man who had his brains BEATEN OUT OF HIS HEAD with a common piece of pipe. Plenty of people have beaten to death with sticks of various types. Before the time of the sword armies fought battles armed with only sticks and clubs including the ancient Egyptians.

A criminal assault is not a sporting event and you don't owe your assailant a fair fight because you have no way to know that your attacker will stop once he gets you hurt and disabled. You can't bet your life on his good intentions. A sturdy stick can be as deadly as anything else if the attacker chooses to finish you off.
 
Just a remembrance from my (somewhat) mis-spent youth...

Had a good friend who had crutches and leg braces. A couple of Wise N. Himers thought he would be an easy target. Before could get across the small saloon, BOTH of them were on the floor....

Yeah..don't mess with a guy on crutches...
 
It may be worth pondering how unlawful violence starts. Self-defense is about protecting yourself from unlawful violence, not squaring off for a duel. If you're doing that you are both law breakers. I'm a little short on time right now to elaborate, but it seems to me that an assault against someone like me where I would be justified in using force is going to occur under a limited set of circumstances.
 
So how would you close the distiance to where you could employ your knife?
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A two hand hold like the one you describe in an earlier post gives you about a 6" reach with a cane length stick.

If you swing the stick like a bat you have a much longer reach but it's slower and makes it easier for a quick and/or skilled opponent to get inside the swing.
 
The two hand hold is strictly limited to close quarter use in a crowd or narrow hallway. You have to learn how to redondo, that is cycle your swings back through the cocked position and recover or the opponent will get inside. This is what makes a weapon like a bat easier to defend against because it is just plain too heavy to recover quickly.

I bought a Cold Steel Brooklyn Smasher:
http://www.coldsteel.com/brooklynsmasher.html
and I just can't control the follow through fast enough to suit me. This thing weighs 39 ounces and even though it delivers tremendous force it is just too heavy. To further complicate things the weight is well forward of center and this makes it feel even heavier than it is. See the post about "My new stick, better than a baseball bat." I have found something a good bit lighter that balances better yet still has plenty of mass.
 
This stick vs. knife direction this conversation is heading reminds me of a question that I ask my students.

Which is a better weapon,

a custom built sniper rifle capable of hitting a man at 1,000 yards.

Or

A snub nose 5 shot .44 Special revolver?

The correct answer is “it depends.”

The sub nose revolver would be useless in the wide open terrain desert of warfare where the enemy is hundreds of yards away and the sniper rifle would be totally useless if you were attacked by the passenger in the front seat of your car because you would not have enough room to turn it.

Even the combination of the stick and knife, the sword requires some room to use. We have all seen movies where two swashbucklers tie up in a sword fight and the more devious one pulls out a dagger and finishes the other.

The thing that gives a stick an advantage in a typical criminal assault is that the bad guy must pass through your sticks optimum range before he can lay hands (or blade) on you. Unless you live in a crowded city and have to ride a subway you probably do not have many anonymous members of the general public get within hands reach of you in your daily routine. Even if you do it is unlikely that a total stranger is going to knife or sucker punch you without at least some form of escalation that will give you time to adjust your distance. I teach several methods to set up a “sucker punch” with a cane without giving away your intentions. One is to subtly shift your grip down the shaft a bit and punch to the body with the handle end by aligning the stick with your forearm. This puts the mass of your body into the strike as well as giving you a little more reach. This is why I like a minimal ball grip rather than a crook or derby grip.
 
JohnKSa wrote:

If you swing the stick like a bat you have a much longer reach but it's slower and makes it easier for a quick and/or skilled opponent to get inside the swing.
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True, and a good point.

Each situation (usually dynamic and changing) will best be addressed using specific “techniques/tactics”.

Therein…lays the benefit of formal training if you intend to use a cane/stick as a defensive weapon.

I can think of scenarios where grasping and swinging a cane like a bat…would be just the ticket, but would not be appropriate (or even possible) in other situations.

So…IF the person wielding the cane has ONLY that one skill…then yes, chances are excellent someone will get inside his defenses quickly.

Environment and the physical capabilities of the person defending themself come into play also.

Except to support yourself…a cane might be of limited value to you… if you are in a crowded elevator.

Conversely….give me a little room (that I can maintain) and I will choose a cane/stick to defend against a knife attack ANY day….(vs. knife on knife).

Then you have the matter of why the average person carrying a cane even has it. Odds are…they NEED it (to some degree) in order to support their weight or aid in their mobility. These will be the folks most vulnerable and perhaps those who would benefit most from training (geared toward their limitations).

As pointed out…learning to “Redondo” is very important…but harder to do with a cane than with Escrima Sticks. Still, the concept of keeping the weapon fluid and “re-striking” is a valid one.

Many folks are able to learn useful techniques, concepts and principals from attending “seminars” if they are available in your area.

It is a misnomer to think that you have to invest years of training before you can defend yourself. Of course, it is equally wrong to believe you will become “accomplished” after only a few lessons.

The point is: While it is good to have ANY weapon vs. NO weapon, it is imperative to know how to use what you have, if you expect to successfully defend yourself.

One Trick Ponies….don’t last too long in the real world.
 
Flintknapper said:

It is a misnomer to think that you have to invest years of training before you can defend yourself. Of course, it is equally wrong to believe you will become “accomplished” after only a few lessons.
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I can show you everything you need to know to defend yourself effectivly with a stick or cane in just a couple of hours. The kicker is that you must practice those techniques regularly for a while before you "own" them and can use them reflexivly. Then you must practice periodicaly to keep those skills sharp. This is no different than learning to shoot. It takes range time.
 
^^^^^^^^

I couldn't do it in a "couple of hours", but I can put the fundamentals on anyone in a couple of days, then as you say...let them practice to the point it is ingrained and kept sharp by periodic review/practice.

Like most things...its a perishable skill, but not completely so.

The reason I like a couple of days...is to impart the use of certain concepts and principles. Once you understand those...the application of any defensive tool becomes more effective.

The vast majority of folks get taught: If he does "A", you do "b", and end up getting their clocks cleaned on the street.

Time spent learning WHY you might employ a certain technique, when it is useful, when not, etc...is a skill in itself and tends to have lasting value.

But yes, I concur....a lot can be learned quickly by a good student...then perfected later with practice.
 
I say "a couple of hours" meaning that is how long it would take me to cover the basics with just me talking and demonstrating Of course there is no way anyone could remember everything that they saw in two hours. I was thinking along the lines of an instructional DVD that could be paused and repeated.

Our last seminar consisted of six two hour classes spread out over a six week period. The majority of the time was not spent on direct instruction but on drills and interactive practice. For example, I might spend five minutes teaching a technique and half an hour letting the students work on it until everyone was doing it correctly but I digress.

Back to your original point, I agree that stick self-defense is one of the easier martial arts to learn plus it is not nearly as physically demanding as traditional Karate or wrestling. It is suitable for people over 50 because it does not put a lot of stress on your back and knees and all the impact is taken by the stick rather than your joints. Realize that I am talking about learning self-defense with a stick, NOT stick fighting like the Dog Brothers do where both opponents square off with a length of rattan for a sporting duel. That is rough stuff and terrible on the fingers.

Your chances against getting in a stick on stick fight with a skilled opponent outside the dojo are astronomical. Case in point, I worked as a bouncer for five years in a sports bar and we literally had racks of pool sticks mounted on the walls. We also had our share of brawls. During that time I NEVER saw two guys grab up pool cues and duel like they do in the martial arts movies. In fact I have never even heard of two people getting in a real stick on stick fight outside martial arts class. I do know of three people who have been struck by lightning though.
 
My state allows CCW in parks, however local officials can make local ordinances to thwart this. I see the advantage of a cane as more of a deterrent. A bad guy most likely in a park will wait for one of those naive anti-gun Brady characters that think the police can protect them.

Kind of like that old joke about the two old women and the bear. One brought her tennis shoes. The other told her she couldn't outrun a bear. The one with the tennis shoes told her she didn't have to outrun the bear, just outrun her.
 
"My state allows CCW in parks, however local officials can make local ordinances to thwart this. I see the advantage of a cane as more of a deterrent. A bad guy most likely in a park will wait for one of those naive anti-gun Brady characters that think the police can protect them. "

This just one of the huge advantages of a stick/cane/staff. When someone is close, the stick is right there already in your hand. You on't have to grab and pull it, no opening to worry about, no laws against it, and it's always with you.

It can block an incoming fist or knife, and strike a nice butt stroke under the chin or in the throat an instant later. It's a fast surprise weapon that can be carried in plain sight anywhere. Some places you can't have that knife with you. A stick can be made from many things in a few moments notice, from a wide range of things.

A knife is a poor second place.
 
Some people have expressed a concern that carrying a cane might make you appear lame or weak and therefore an easy target. You DO NOT need to affect a limp to legally carry a cane. If I have to go into the city and feel like I might be in a dangerous environment I make a point NOT touch the tip on the street so I don’t appear to be using the cane as a crutch. I choke up on the grip about a foot with the head pointing either forward in a reverse grip or backward in a natural grip. This method of carry does not cross the line into blandishment yet allows the casual observer to clearly see that I can walk just fine. From these two aforementioned carry positions you can launch the stick equivalent of a sucker punch either with a circular strike or a thrusting motion with the butt end.

I really wish some of you could have attended my seminar as we spent a good bit of time on non-threatening carry methods and “quick draw” strikes from these two basic carry positions.
 
Owen Sparks wrote:

Some people have expressed a concern that carrying a cane might make you appear lame or weak and therefore an easy target. You DO NOT need to affect a limp to legally carry a cane. If I have to go into the city and feel like I might be in a dangerous environment I make a point NOT touch the tip on the street so I don’t appear to be using the cane as a crutch.
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Exactly. IF you are physically able to do so...a small display indicating you are able to defend yourself can go a long way.

Normally, a BG will assess the potential victim (size him up) and weigh the risks before deciding whether or not to launch an attack.

Any reasonably intelligent BG will be quick to pick up on subtle hints suggesting he may be in for a fight.
 
So now I have a question about technique with one hand. I have baton training so a shorter stick makes sense. But with a cane, one hand seems like it would take a pretty large wind-up to go for a swinging strike. What's the feasibility of going for a thrust with one hand?
 
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