CANNIBALS in our midst

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mohican

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The discussion on crossbows here in the hunting section sparked this

Although I didn't see any attacks, per se on crossbow users, I saw much information about crossbows themselves that based on my experience didn't hold up to the light of day. The "my experts" told me a regular bow is more accurate and better suited past xxxx yards sort of thing. (Break down expert, and EX is a has been, and a spurt is a premature.... :D)

I don't meet many cannibals in person, in fact the only people I have personally met in the hunting arena that I would call cannibals would be the died in the wool, leatherstocking traditional archers, and then only a few of them. And maybe a couple compound bow hunters railing against people using crossbows.

Most of the "I'm this type of hunter, the rest are beneath me" types that I've run across have been on the internet, and not here at the highroad perse, but in general.

I feel its wrong, and devisive to denigrate another legal hunting method.
At a time when we need more than ever to maintain or boost hunter numbers, it's disturbing to hear or read that inlines muzzleloaders are for cheaters,and only flintlocks should be allowed. Or that handguns shouldn't be mixed with shotguns during a firearms deer season. Or that crossbows offer some inherent majic advantage, and shouldn't be allowed. How about playing into both the anit hunters and anti 2A's hands by saying that there is no legitimate place in the game field for that old Garand.

All of this is ways that people in the hunting community eat their own, so to speak.

I've seen some one with a $600.00 mathews bow(with a release), $250 scentlock suit, and $250 climbing stand actually tell some kid that his ($150 at Wallyworld) presented some kind of unsportsmanlike technological advantage. If you get someone easily dissuaded, then you might have lost a beginning hunter. Not that this guy cared. He had a place to hunt, for now.....
 
You know, I tend to agree. I'm still a little old fashioned in some respects but quite the opposite in others. I still use my Hawken rifle when I muzzleloader hunt but if in-lines are legal, I don't care if someone uses them. I started muzzloader hunting because it gave me extra opportunities to hunt when not many other hunters are in the woods.
 
I didn't reply to the other thread, but as a bowyer I have to agree with anybody who points out the inherent weaknesses crossbows have, and there's no value judgement about the users of crossbows in such statements.

Crossbows have short limbs and that's the bottom line. That means they just can't shoot hunting-weight projectiles very fast for their draw weights. On top of that the short limbs don't stabilize aim as well as long bow limbs do, and similarly the shortness of the bolt leads to even more instability compared to arrows.

That's not to say they don't work at all as hunting weapons because they obviously do, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who can shoot very well with them - but they're honestly at somewhat of a disadvantage for hunting deer-size game compared to normal bows of hunting draw-weight.

For me the main factor keeping me from being very interested in them is the obvious - how fast can you get a second shot off? For the same reason I regard mechanical releases as not-so-great for hunters.

So I have reservations about crossbows being made generally legal (they're already legal for disabled and older hunters here) for deer for these reasons - and for the same reasons I'd object to .22 rimfire being made legal for deer even though I'm sure in terms of raw numbers .22 has killed as many deer as any caliber. Everybody is going to draw a line somewhere, based on what they know or think they know, aren't they?

In the event crossbows were made legal I wouldn't feel the need to bash anybody using them. I'd just cross my fingers and hope everybody using them realizes their limitations and picks their shots extra extra carefully.

So does thinking like this make me a cannibal?
 
The whole deal of hunting, to me, is ethics and clean kill. So, efficiency in achieving the clean kill beats the heck out of other considerations for equipment. After all, there's a reason us old guys use scopes, where a young guy can do just fine with irons.

I just don't see any need for "long bow vs. cross bow" canniballistics. I got enough trouble keeping up with an '06. :D:D:D

Art
 
For the same reason I regard mechanical releases as not-so-great for hunters.

Cadwallader,

I have to ask and I don't mean this in a negative way. But what the heck are talking about...

This and the shorter limb comment just don't ring true to me in a real world hunting situation.

I shoot a matthews Q2 and use a mechanical release while I'm not a highly experienced bowyer I have killed a Zebra a record book kudu, a warthog and and assorted other large game with a bow.

Never once have I had the oportunity or the need to reload fast and get off a second shot. I've killed everything I've ever shot at with one arrow.

My matthews bow has some of the shortest limbs in the industry and it's like a 300fps IBO I'm pushing a 450gr arrow with a 120gr broad head at like 260FPS and they'll go all the way thropugh a kudu after hitting the shoulder blade. Nothing wrong there.

i just don't think that the rapid second shot agrument holds any water what so ever when archery is the game...:)
 
Cadwallader

I look at what you are are advancing as theory, interesting, perhaps, but theory. In practice it is much different. The longer arms on a compound bow give more leverage and time/contact and give more velocity typically than a similar compound crossbow. Mechanically more accurate? I beg to differ. Look how many people make a living in archery proshops "tuning" bows, juggling shaft lengths, fletchings,broadhead types&weights, rest, dampneners,cam timing to get a bow to shoot well.

Crossbows, on the other hand, are pretty much a take out of the box, sight in and go hunting. They don't seem to be as finicky. The most problmatic area of crossbows is sight longetivity.

In my experience, any crossbow of 150# draw weight or above has adequate trajectory and range for deer hunting, which to me for deer hunting is 30, maybe 35 yards max, with 20 yard shots preferable.
As far as them not being as accurate in general as bows, well I am much more accurate with my crossbow than with my bow, but that is maybe a matter of practice. The mechanical accuracy of my crossbow is very good, off hand at 20 yards I often touch bolts.

Look back to medieval times. The crossbow was so far ahead of the longbow, and many were able to shoot bolt/blades heavy enough to pierce the armor of knights and soldiers of the day, so (sound familiar) many places banned them from use from "the commoners". In other words, the left wing medieval press deemed them the assault rifles of the day.

As far as a fast second shot? It may be slower to put down, cock, place the second bolt than a compound bow, but not by much. If you have missed the deer with the first shot, it's probably gone, anyway. If you need a finishing shot, in practical terms its a wash. Both are much faster to reload than a muzzleloader.

Can I compare crossbows to concealed carry? When they are introduced as legal in an area for general use there is a lot of uproar, but "idiot" uses are few and far between, and time goes on, hunting seasons pass, and places that allow crossbows don't seem to find any negatives associated with them.

A cross bow is like any other hunting tool. You have to know it's limits. Just because it's draw is 175 lbs, and your 55lb bow shoots well at 35 yards does not mean the crossbow shoots well at 100. 99.9% grasp this easily.

The biggest problem I see with crossbows is the same that I see with inline muzzle loaders and the super sabots for shotguns. The product isn't bad, but hype from manufacturers or a few users lead some to try distances they shouldn't.
 
"Rapid fire" comparison between longbows and crossbows was of concern when shooting at massed enemies, was it not?

Absent very open country, a rapid second shot with a semi-auto rifle is rarely possible. With any bow? I'd think, "Forget it!"

:), Art
 
in the case of massed enemies, I think they fired in groups one group would shoot and start to reload while another group fired

Some of the medieval crossbows had such a high pull that they were cocked with a hand cranked "winch". I think the term for these crossbows would be Arbelest

Ah, Websters
Arbelest CROSSBOW A medieval military weapon with a steel bow used to throw arrows, balls, stones, and quarrels
 
In my childhood I heard many rifle hunters disclaim the use of bows (recurves mostly back then) for deer and they had their reasons....

Later I heard the bow hunters AND some of the rifle hunters disclaim the black powder guys for popularizing a weapon that history dictated was inferior and they had their other reason......

Now it's one group of bow hunters looking down on the crossbow guys...and they have their reasons.....

In the long run there is nothing wrong with using a compound bow or a recurve bow or a BP rifle or a crossbow....or for that matter a spear (as I have come to understand is popular in some circles)....

Crossbows for deer hunting will improve and become specialized with time as all the above mention items have. The crossbow carried in the wood lot 10 years in the future WILL be a different tool and will have different capabilities than the all purpose model out there today. More states will add the crossbow to the list of accepted harvesting tools.

JMHO based on looking at hunting trends and the evolution of hunting equipment over the last 50+years.

S-



 
I used to have a Barret 150 lb. crossbow... got in a horse trade of some sort. Had a broken prod. (Bow) replaced the prod, took THREE of use to string the thing... and even with a Goat's foot lever (which you can accidently bend into a pretzel shape easily) it was SCARY to cock the thing.

It's only legal in rifle season.. and quite frankly, I couldn't imagine what it would be like to take a fall carrying it cocked, which has happed while carrying a rifle.

BTW if you fire it without a bolt, you'll likely break the prod at the tips, and all you'll be left with is a prop for your room mate's Mad Max costume.

Cannibals? Never met one. The ONLY place I'd use a crossbow is from a tree stand, cocked AFTER I got into it.
 
I wonder how we've avoided the dogs versus no dogs controversy. I know deer hunters on both sides who would gladly break a chair over your head if you were on the wrong side of the argument. Some who would kill your dog and then feeding it to you later as "venison" and others who'd run their dogs right into your shooting house. :uhoh:
 
I wonder how we've avoided the dogs versus no dogs controversy. I know deer hunters on both sides who would gladly break a chair over your head if you were on the wrong side of the argument. Some who would kill your dog and then feeding it to you later as "venison" and others who'd run their dogs right into your shooting house.

Meek,

Yeah I've hinted to this one on several occasions but have never dropped the bomb. Being an old houndsmen (bear and lion). I've seen both sides of the argument. Maybe we should get his one out there again.

H&H
 
Concerning crossbows, long bows and compounds etc. I have used all three to take deer and I personally find that a crossbow is a necessary evil for me. I physically cannot pull a long bow or compound because of disabilities.
The crossbow that I have is/was supposed to be top of the line and I find it exceedingly heavy to carry and awkward to handle in a tree stand or blind. Granted it is already draw/cocked and ready to shoot when the game appears etc and one would think that it would be very advantages. However I do not feel that it is and would much rather be able to draw and shoot a conventional bow. I believe that because of misunderstandings of the workings etc of crossbows that people believe that they are better etc. To fully understand what I am trying to say one would have to hunt with each of these weapons and find out what it is really like. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
Iowans must have a Drs. letter to be approved to use a crossbow for deer hunting during regular bow season.
My $.02 for what it is worth.
Vern
 
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