Cannon rounds from WWII

[lysanderxiii]

I have a shell with headstamp markings 120MM T25 dated 1958 Lot N R-6-11 and this thing is big and heavy. My sister's husband, a retired Marine had it in his reloading room. He used it for his cleaning rods. When Mike passed away my sister gave it to me and I use it as Mike did. Short rods go in heavy cardboard tubes I shoved in there.
T25 Artillery shell case. M58. 33 x 7 inches! 23 pounds!
I have some other stuff like 20MM and 50 BMG but this thing is big, real big.

Ron

That will be from the 120mm anti-aircraft cannon. It was a beast. Had a folding cruciform platform "trail" that allowed 360° traverse. In the late 40s, they included radar direction.
View attachment 1079674

If he was a Marine, it is far more likely this was the weapon system the case came from:



The Marines used the M103, M103A1 and M103A2 and their 120mm gun for many years, only retiring them in 1974.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

That biggun' looks like a spent casing from my Colt 1991A1...

 

[ACES&8S]

You can! All it takes is $$$$$$-

I had an opportunity to but an M60 back when I had my dealers license, the price was $2,700 and it
ran like a machine. I had to many investments in my inventory at the time and always thought
that one or another would come around again.
The price jumped out of sight and the investment would have been a good one that got away.

 

[ACES&8S]

They came from the frigate Samuel B. Roberts on her last deployment before decommissioning.

Isn't it remarkable at how we get older and our interest, and even investment in history increases more and more.
I envy those who started younger with a great interest in collecting military equipment or anything historical.

 

[230RN]

Interesting.... I have some old, big military brass kicking around, like a WW2 40mm Mk 1 inert shell with a bullet seated. Along with an empty 1943 105 mm Howitzer shell that was turned into what I'm guessing was an ashtray. Had a couple handles mounted on each side. Found it in the trash many years ago when I drove a garbage truck. Still had cigarette butts in it when I rescued it. Don't have any pix of them here on the computer but if I have time I'll remedy that tomorrow. Is that bigger one a 40mm like I mentioned? Looks somewhat like mine except mine has two crimp grooves on the neck to hold the bullet. They could vanish when it gets fired and then look like yours, possibly? I'm also clueless on that axis one.

I was curious if anyone has ever seen a 3" or so cannon shell casing which had been embossed with an image of the Statue of Liberty. It was about 2 feet tall, but I'm working from 60 year old memories. It was set up to become a gas lamp and had threaded holes in it for that plumbing.

My father embossed it while he was in the Navy and it hung around the house in New York forever, it having been obsoleted by electric lighting. I lost track of that and a bunch of other stuff after I moved out to Colorado and my mother sold the New York house.

I remember it had a fake shell, also with threaded holes for a gas lamp.

A long shot, but you never know. I don't want it back, but I wouldn't mind knowing where it might have ended up and I wouldn't mind seeing photos of it. (And of course I can provide some provenance for it.)

Terry, 230RN

 

[Reloadron]

If he was a Marine, it is far more likely this was the weapon system the case came from:

View attachment 1080026

The Marines used the M103, M103A1 and M103A2 and their 120mm gun for many years, only retiring them in 1974.

No clue where Mike picked it up during his travels. He started enlisted and retired officer and somewhere he picked up that shell along the way. After he passed away my sister gave me the shell. I use it as he did, cleaning rod storage.

Somewhere along my career I picked up a 40mm green cluster flare. A young Marine scribed his unit on it. All I need is an M 79 grenade launcher to shoot it.

Ron

 

[CapnMac]

What amazes me is how some 40 mm rounds exploded a certain distance from a ship , as seen in films with kamikaze attacks, while other rounds were designed with magnetic proximity fuses.

I can’t remember any WW2 films which depict proximity shells actually exploding very close to an aircraft.

Those bursts are more likely from 3" shells with timed fuses. 40mm bofors used an impact fuse. The rounds were clipped together in units of four per clip. Which did not make them very handy for setting timed fuses.

Fuse timer would be set up on the gun mount (typically on the left rear side) and had a pair of wheels which spun the moving part of the timed fuse to the computed distance setting, sent down electrically from the gun director.

The VT fuse was perfected about 1943, and was introduced into service of 5" rounds in 1944 (British 4 & 6 inch AAA rounds, too). It was scaled down to 3" shells at the end of '44, but really did not get into service until 1945.

The VT fuse was scaled down to 40mm use by 1948-9, mostly seeing service with the Bofors L80. The technology has scaled the radar-activated detonator down to use on 20mm ammo, but that use is not common, largely as the amount of space remaining for explosive filling makes it a bit pointless.

 

[22250Rem]

I'd like to thank Reloadron for the idea of a convenient spot for cleaning rods, using my old 105mm Howitzer shell which is now on its third phase of usefulness after being a Howitzer shell, and then an ashtray. ... I never found much use for it other than being up on a shelf and looking cool. It now has found usefulness in storing cleaning rods. Sure beats being an ashtray; I don't smoke anyway and was always leaning rods against the bench where they'd often get knocked over. Plus; I now have more room up on that shelf. Thanks again.

 

[Reloadron]

I'd like to thank Reloadron for the idea of a convenient spot for cleaning rods, using my old 105mm Howitzer shell which is now on its third phase of usefulness after being a Howitzer shell, and then an ashtray. View attachment 1080157... I never found much use for it other than being up on a shelf and looking cool. It now has found usefulness in storing cleaning rods. Sure beats being an ashtray; I don't smoke anyway and was always leaning rods against the bench where they'd often get knocked over. Plus; I now have more room up on that shelf. Thanks again.

You're welcome on behalf of my brother-in-law.

Ron

 

[lysanderxiii]

Those bursts are more likely from 3" shells with timed fuses. 40mm bofors used an impact fuse. The rounds were clipped together in units of four per clip. Which did not make them very handy for setting timed fuses.

Fuse timer would be set up on the gun mount (typically on the left rear side) and had a pair of wheels which spun the moving part of the timed fuse to the computed distance setting, sent down electrically from the gun director.

The VT fuse was perfected about 1943, and was introduced into service of 5" rounds in 1944 (British 4 & 6 inch AAA rounds, too). It was scaled down to 3" shells at the end of '44, but really did not get into service until 1945.

The VT fuse was scaled down to 40mm use by 1948-9, mostly seeing service with the Bofors L80. The technology has scaled the radar-activated detonator down to use on 20mm ammo, but that use is not common, largely as the amount of space remaining for explosive filling makes it a bit pointless.

40mm fuses had a self-destruct feature, so they did detonate a certain distance from the ship, usually about 3,000 yards.

 

[CapnMac]

usually about 3,000 yards.

Now fickle memory is wanting to 'click' on 6-8000 yds for the Bofors 40. With another 1000 for the L70 variant.

 

[tark]

When I was volunteering at the Rock Island Arsenal Museum a few years ago, I got the chance to examine a Mk 108 30mm cannon from a Messerschmidt 109G. It was short, probably not five feet long and
It didn't look at all like I expected an aircraft cannon should look. The barrel was only about two feet long. Intrigued, I did some research. I was shocked at what I found.

The gun fired at a rate of 600 rounds per minute. The pilot needed to get on target quickly because the aircraft couldn't carry very much of the heavy ammo. The rounds were electrically primed and the projectile itself was twice as long as the shell case. Most amazing of all was the fact that the gun had a straight blowback operation. The means by which the Germans got away with this was quite ingenious. The shell casing was straight walled with no belt. The rim was rebated. The firing chamber was very long and when the round entered it, it became the equivalent of a piston in a cylinder. It was fired while still moving foreword, while being pushed by a heavy breech bolt backed by the mother of all recoil springs. By the time the fired shell had stopped the bolt and reversed direction the projectile had cleared the barrel. The projectiles themselves were quite long, nearly six inches. They weighed 330 grams and they were packed with 85 grams of RDX which is a very nasty explosive indeed. They had a relatively low MV of around 1700 FPS.

The Germans found that it took, on average, just four hits to down a B-17, Whereas it took over five times that many hits with the Mk 151 20mm cannon. The Brits tested one and found that a hit on the wing root of a spitfire would cause so much damage that in flight the wing would been ripped off the aircraft.

The gun was greatly feared by allied pilots, but it had its problems as well. Simply put , it wasn't as reliable as the 151 and it couldn't carry as much ammo. The 109G only carried one, firing through the propeller hub, and if it jammed, the pilot lost his most destructive weapon. The later ME 262 was equipped with FOUR of these monsters!

The guns are all gone now, while the museum is being renovated. I wish I had a pic to post. I'm too puter stupid to know how to post a link, but simply googling "Mk 108 30mm cannon" will get you a wealth of info.

 

[jeepnik]

I was curious if anyone has ever seen a 3" or so cannon shell casing which had been embossed with an image of the Statue of Liberty. It was about 2 feet tall, but I'm working from 60 year old memories. It was set up to become a gas lamp and had threaded holes in it for that plumbing.

My father embossed it while he was in the Navy and it hung around the house in New York forever, it having been obsoleted by electric lighting. I lost track of that and a bunch of other stuff after I moved out to Colorado and my mother sold the New York house.

I remember it had a fake shell, also with threaded holes for a gas lamp.

A long shot, but you never know. I don't want it back, but I wouldn't mind knowing where it might have ended up and I wouldn't mind seeing photos of it. (And of course I can provide some provenance for it.)

Terry, 230RN

Look at the 3” 50 cal photo I posted. Sailors would take a case, fill it with wet sand then hand punch patterns into them. This one was a practice round. The projectile was machined out, drilled and tapped. Then a base was made. The primer hole was used to connect the base to the casing.
This one was started by my grandfather in 1940 or 1941. A little event called Pearl Harbor prevented his finishing it before he died in 1942.

I completed it in 1978 while working in a local shipyard. While we were refitting a WWII destroyer.

The shell came from the USS Vestal. This was the repair ship tethered to the USS Arizona on December 7, 1941. The Vestal was my grandfather’s last ship. He lost several good friends that day.

 

[Speedo66]

When I was volunteering at the Rock Island Arsenal Museum a few years ago, I got the chance to examine a Mk 108 30mm cannon from a Messerschmidt 109G. It was short, probably not five feet long and
It didn't look at all like I expected an aircraft cannon should look. The barrel was only about two feet long. Intrigued, I did some research. I was shocked at what I found.

The gun fired at a rate of 600 rounds per minute. The pilot needed to get on target quickly because the aircraft couldn't carry very much of the heavy ammo. The rounds were electrically primed and the projectile itself was twice as long as the shell case. Most amazing of all was the fact that the gun had a straight blowback operation. The means by which the Germans got away with this quite ingenious. The shell casing was straight walled with no belt. The rim was rebated. The firing chamber was very long and when the round entered it, it became the equivalent of a piston in a cylinder. It was fired while still moving foreword, while being pushed by a heavy breech bolt backed by the mother of all recoil springs. By the time it had stopped the bolt and reversed direction the projectile had cleared the barrel. The projectiles themselves were quite long, nearly four inches. They weighed 330 grams and they were packed with 85 grams of RDX which is a very nasty explosive indeed. They had a relatively low MV of around 1700 FPS.

The Germans found that it took, on average, just four hits to down a B-17, Whereas it took over five times that many hits with the Mk 151 20mm cannon. The Brits tested one and found that a hit on the wing root of a spitfire would cause so much damage that in flight the wing would been ripped off the aircraft.

The gun was greatly feared by allied pilots, but it had its problems as well. Simply put , it wasn't as reliable as the 151 and it couldn't carry as much ammo. The 109G only carried one, firing through the propeller hub, and if it jammed, the pilot lost his most destructive weapon. The later ME 262 was equipped with FOUR of these monsters!

The guns are all gone now, while the museum is being renovated. I wish I had a pic to post. I'm too puter stupid to know how to post a link, but simply googling "Mk 108 30mm cannon" will get you a wealth of info.

"They weighed 330 grams and they were packed with 85 grams of RDX which is a very nasty explosive indeed. They had a relatively low MV of around 1700 FPS."

A gram is 15.4 grains, 28.4 grams in an ounce.

 

[230RN]

Look at the 3” 50 cal photo I posted. Sailors would take a case, fill it with wet sand then hand punch patterns into them. This one was a practice round. The projectile was machined out, drilled and tapped. Then a base was made. The primer hole was used to connect the base to the casing.
This one was started by my grandfather in 1940 or 1941. A little event called Pearl Harbor prevented his finishing it before he died in 1942.

I completed it in 1978 while working in a local shipyard. While we were refitting a WWII destroyer.

The shell came from the USS Vestal. This was the repair ship tethered to the USS Arizona on December 7, 1941. The Vestal was my grandfather’s last ship. He lost several good friends that day.

It's hard to make out the subject on that shell because of the reflections.

My father was born in 1901, was in the Navy, possibly in WWI or thereafter. During WWII, he worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yards and did not have to serve. I know "my" shell was done long before WWII, because of the gas light purpose.
He unfortunately died when I was 16 -17 and I never really talked with him about his service, to my regret. I recently discovered that Navy service records are available, with some missing because of a fire. I might fill out the ridiculously complex paperwork to see what turns up.
Thanks for the PM, sorry I missed that post first time around.
Terry

 

[tark]

A gram is 15.4 grains, 28.4 grams in an ounce.

Thank you Speedo66. I didn't have a conversion chart handy.

All you Nam' vets, remember how destructive an M-79 grenade was? It had one ounce of RDX as its bursting charge. The Mk 108 round had almost three ounces. Little wonder it was so destructive...

 

[Reloadron]

During WWII, he worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yards and did not have to serve.

Fond memories of the Brooklyn Navy Yard and visits to it as a kid. As a kid I was in the Allied Nautical Cadets and visited the WWII Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV42) in the Navy yards. The Navy Yards alone sport an interesting history.

I would try and find your dad's records.

Ron

 

[Officers'Wife]

When I was volunteering at the Rock Island Arsenal Museum a few years ago, I got the chance to examine a Mk 108 30mm cannon from a Messerschmidt 109G. It was short, probably not five feet long and
It didn't look at all like I expected an aircraft cannon should look. The barrel was only about two feet long. Intrigued, I did some research. I was shocked at what I found.

The gun fired at a rate of 600 rounds per minute. The pilot needed to get on target quickly because the aircraft couldn't carry very much of the heavy ammo. The rounds were electrically primed and the projectile itself was twice as long as the shell case. Most amazing of all was the fact that the gun had a straight blowback operation. The means by which the Germans got away with this was quite ingenious. The shell casing was straight walled with no belt. The rim was rebated. The firing chamber was very long and when the round entered it, it became the equivalent of a piston in a cylinder. It was fired while still moving foreword, while being pushed by a heavy breech bolt backed by the mother of all recoil springs. By the time the fired shell had stopped the bolt and reversed direction the projectile had cleared the barrel. The projectiles themselves were quite long, nearly four inches. They weighed 330 grams and they were packed with 85 grams of RDX which is a very nasty explosive indeed. They had a relatively low MV of around 1700 FPS.

The Germans found that it took, on average, just four hits to down a B-17, Whereas it took over five times that many hits with the Mk 151 20mm cannon. The Brits tested one and found that a hit on the wing root of a spitfire would cause so much damage that in flight the wing would been ripped off the aircraft.

The gun was greatly feared by allied pilots, but it had its problems as well. Simply put , it wasn't as reliable as the 151 and it couldn't carry as much ammo. The 109G only carried one, firing through the propeller hub, and if it jammed, the pilot lost his most destructive weapon. The later ME 262 was equipped with FOUR of these monsters!

The guns are all gone now, while the museum is being renovated. I wish I had a pic to post. I'm too puter stupid to know how to post a link, but simply googling "Mk 108 30mm cannon" will get you a wealth of info.

including pictures.

 

[lysanderxiii]

"They weighed 330 grams and they were packed with 85 grams of RDX which is a very nasty explosive indeed. They had a relatively low MV of around 1700 FPS."

A gram is 15.4 grains, 28.4 grams in an ounce.

Yes, the projectile weighed 11.6 ounces, the complete cartridge, just over a pound.

You can judge the length of these at around 6.5 inched based on the 3 cm diameter

Oh, and the M-Geschoss designed did not use RDX exclusively, due to supply and production limitations TNT, Amatol, PETN, or combination of these were used as filler. The later Ausf. C shell saw the filler reduced to “only” 72 g with a corresponding thickening of the shall walls (#4 & #5).



The major drawbacks of the 3-cm Maschinenkanone, MK-108 were the low muzzle velocity which gave a very rainbow trajectory. When leading a fast moving target you had to compensate for a lot of drop, and the low velocity also meant a range of only 600 meters, as after that distance the projectile was basically just falling out of the sky. The other drawback was the limited amount of ammunition that could be carried. Typical aircraft guns batteries needed around 2000 rounds per minute to ensure a burst would hit the target. A four gun battery of MK-108s of a Me-262 could deliver a respectable 2,400 RPM, but only for 8 seconds, in contrast a P-51 had 29 seconds of firing time at 3,300 RPM and a further 26 seconds at 1,100 RPM.

Also, depending on the actual armament kit installed, Bf-108Gs could have an additional MK-108 in wing pods under each wing, however, all of the Bf-109 MK-108 would be limited to 65 rounds per gun.

 

[230RN]

Fond memories of the Brooklyn Navy Yard and visits to it as a kid. As a kid I was in the Allied Nautical Cadets and visited the WWII Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV42) in the Navy yards. The Navy Yards alone sport an interesting history.

I would try and find your dad's records.

Ron

Yeah, I reckon I ought to "apply" for them when things get less complicated. Not to prolong this forever, but I was in the Nautical Cadets, too. Liked the drill and learning the lingo (up, down, the deck and the head) and the cadet rifles, but somehow I lost interest in it. I think I got interested in my older brother's radio controlled model planes --pulse-driven clockwork rudder.

Terry

 

[lysanderxiii]

For those of you wondering why the effective range of the MK-108 is so short, it has to do with how fixed guns in aircraft are set up. The guns are not set level to the waterline but are super-elevated so the trajectory crosses the gunsight line-of-sight at a predetermined range 300 to 500 yards ahead of the aircraft. If the trajectory is too much of an arc, you can no longer bring the nose of the aircraft up and still see the target and the tracers at the same time.

 

[PzGren]

A friend of mine was one of the kids operating the acht-komma-acht FLAK in WWII in the city of Hamburg at night. When he went to school in the mornings after the air raids, he picked up the fragments of the shells and painted them with clear lacquer as a rust protection. After he died his widow wanted to throw the box of odd "junk" away but I spotted it in the garage and salvaged it.
I think I am in possession of one of the best collection of 8,8 fragments, all I have seen in museums were badly rusted. A 105mm empty shell of a Leopard tank serves as an umbrella holder by the entrance door.

 

[Bazoo]

Does anyone have an idea of what these cannon rounds are worth? Give or take.

 

[Ignition Override]

The large case looked like a 40 mm Bofors..

Why?

I’ve seen the WW2 ship action photo Many times where the young American gun crew guy in the Pacific yells commands above tbe noise, with such ammo visible.

 

[230RN]

I'd like to thank Reloadron for the idea of a convenient spot for cleaning rods, using my old 105mm Howitzer shell which is now on its third phase of usefulness after being a Howitzer shell, and then an ashtray. View attachment 1080157... I never found much use for it other than being up on a shelf and looking cool. It now has found usefulness in storing cleaning rods. Sure beats being an ashtray; I don't smoke anyway and was always leaning rods against the bench where they'd often get knocked over. Plus; I now have more room up on that shelf. Thanks again.

Strikes me it looks more like a spittoon which happened to have some butts in it when you rescued it. Just looks that way with the handles.

This whole thread is incredibly fascinating. "Likes" to each of you all, and "Like,Like" to the OP.

Terry