Can't find an accurate load for my AR Predator Pursuit. Possible equipment failure?

[AlliedArmory]

I have now taken this to the range a couple times now. I cannot find a load that my rifle likes. I'm just trying to now see if something is wrong with the rifle. Before I call RRA, some opinions will be helpful.

Rifle in question

RRA Predator Pursuit 20" 1:8
Primary Arms 4-16x44 scope on a Burris PEPR
Geissele SSA trigger

The best group I shot was a .8 MOA at 100 yrds but the avg is hovering around 1.5"-2". This was during load development with 69gr SMK over various powder charges of TAC, Varget & AR-Comp. All rounds were loaded to 2.25"OAL and brass trimmed to 1.75". Rem 7.5 primers and all brass was sorted by headstamp.

I have tried to do a process of elimination to see what might be wrong. 1st I let another shooter fire some rounds. He's a good shooter and can easily group sub .5moa all day. His groups were approx 1.5". Next I thought it might be my cheap scope. I put on a Schmidt & Bender on there and tried it that way. No dice. With the S&B on there I shot 2 groups with FGMM 77gr. Both groups were approx 1.5".

Only other thing I can think of is that my upper doesn't like higher grain bullets? I'm heading over to ASR tomorrow morning to try some Hornady 60gr V-Max rounds I loaded up today.

Does anyone have any other suggestions on what it may be? For you Predator Pursuit shooters, what grain bullets does yours like?

 

[JDGray]

My Predator Pursuit liked 60gr Seirra Varminters best, with LC brass, 24gr H335

It hated the heavies with Varget.....

It really hated Win 55gr bulk bullets, throwing 4" groups at 60yrds

 

[wingman]

Think you have it @100 use a 52gr match see what she will do, you will be surprised. My AR prefers 52gr Berger or Sierra with Reloader 7 or 335.

 

[MtnCreek]

I would get a couple of boxes of quality factory match in two different weights; something like Black hills. If it won't shoot sub 1" at 100, there is something else going on.

 

[AlliedArmory]

Well now.....

Hit the range today and shot some 60gr V-Max bullets over TAC. Here is what it did.

I did 2x 5 shot groups for each load. The measurements are the avg of the 2 groups. Rested on a bipod and rear bag. All shots were taken at 100 yrds. About 85 degrees and less than a 5mph wind. Perfect day for shooting.

24.6gr TAC .761"
24.8gr TAC .679"
25.0gr TAC .778"

I'm still looking to improve this, but am I asking too much from this rifle?

 

[P-32]

MTN CREEK gave sound advise. If your rifle won't shoot Black Hills something is up. I might even try some of their match loads. I have not messed with your particular rifle but have shot against RRA NM service rifles. I know one guy who picked up a RRA NM and went from rookie to Master in a season shooting High Power. RRA is thought of having the best out of the box NM service rifle for shooting High Power. I shoot a White Oak Precision upper with a RRA lower and a Geissele 2 stage trigger. (NM = National Match which is shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards with iron sights.)

I've seen the Horn 55 gr. A max's do some nice things over Varget, GI brass and REm 7 1/2's.

The best money I've spent tighting groups so far is uiforming the primer pockets on GI brass.

I shoot allot of Reloder 15 but I think it works best for the heavy SMK's (77 and 80 gr.). For the light bullets I've had some luck with 748.

 

[sansone]

your new groups (post#5) are fine. The brrl likes the lighter pills, no big surprise. Now play with COAL, powder, etc. / you know what to do

 

[wingman]

I'm still looking to improve this, but am I asking too much from this rifle?

Excellent for the rifle, again try a 52 gr match "may" bring groups down to .500, can't hurt to try only out the cost of 100 bullets.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I'll be the contrarian ... any 1:8 RRA should shoot heavier bullets at .5 - .75 at 100 yds. Have you checked the actual twist of the barrel using a tight bore mop and a marked cleaning rod?

I use both a WOA and a RRA 20" in service rifle and they shoot comparably - nothing but 69 - 80 grain loads. 24.2gr of RL-15 for 69s and 24gr for 77 and 80s.

/Bryan

 

[mortablunt]

24.6gr TAC .761"
24.8gr TAC .679"
25.0gr TAC .778"

I'm still looking to improve this, but am I asking too much from this rifle?

Yes, you are now asking too much from the rifle. Get yourself a main battle rifle if you want super accuracy.

 

[Tim the student]

Get yourself a main battle rifle if you want super accuracy.

What do you mean?

 

[Boomie]

Yes, you are now asking too much from the rifle. Get yourself a main battle rifle if you want super accuracy.

??? I have a RR Varmiter (has a heavy 1:8 Wilson barrel). It will easily outshoot my old PTR-91, my uncle's HK91 and my Dad's Garand. Out to 300 yards (the longest range I have easy access to) it hangs with my heavy barreled .308 bolt gun. I'm not sure how a MBR would solve this issue.

BTW, it likes 75 grain Black Hills ammo.

 

[mortablunt]

What do you mean?

I mean that AR's really do not have much more accuracy than .75 MOA/100Yds. A longer rifle with a heftier cartridge, more rifling twist, and a longer sight radius is going to be necessary for getting much better than that.

 

[MtnCreek]

I mean that AR's really do not have much more accuracy than .75 MOA/100Yds. A longer rifle with a heftier cartridge, more rifling twist, and a longer sight radius is going to be necessary for getting much better than that.

longer rifle: How will this affect accuracy at the range the OP is shooting? My answer is it will not.

heftier cartridge: See above.

more rifling twist: More than 1:8? And w/ a heftier cartridge? 1:8 should stabilize any .22 projectile up to (and even beyond) 80 grains.

longer sight radius: How does this help since he’s using a scope?

 

[Tirod]

Since AR's were allowed into NM, they have run off the M14's, Garands, and others without fail for many years. Main Battle Rifles start showing up in the standings somewhere about #13 on the list.

The 6mm PPC holds the 600m record for smallest group, the 6.5G before that. .30's are literally a joke in precision shooting these days. Please fast forward the Time Machine to the present, September 2011. It's not 1975 anymore.

Yes, you could develop a load that does better. Honestly, only about 6 variations have been tried, all at the short COA of 2.250". Lots of accuracy shooters get their alternate calibers out beyond 2.300", and select magazines that allow more.

Stick with your optimum powder load, bump the COA out to the lands in increments. You've yet to even approach developing a load until you've exhausted about 4 dozen variations. And then, you test it again with more variations. Ask the benchresters, it's all they really do, come up with new loads on the range reloading right there, exploring all the possibilities in a planned program.

You hit the first 50% reduction in group size, after the third one, then you are about close enough. But the other guys don't stop there, ever. They're looking for .679" groups at 600m.

 

[FullEffect1911]

I have had excellent luck with H4895 and H335 (my Stag likes the H4895 more).

I would change the bullet weight as well since that is about the only variable you didn't try.

ETA: I should have read the whole thread, I see you are getting some good groups now with the 60 grain projectile.

 

[Obsidian]

Tirod has it about right, for long range highly precise target shooting. My cobbled together AR 15 out shoots 95% of tuned Garands and M14's.
Now I'm not talking about long range minute of bad guy military sniper applications for caliber/knock down power.

However in reference to the OP, others have given some suggestions. Sometimes barrels just like a very specific weight of bullet over a brand of powder. I'm with out coffee as of yet but I'm assuming those are three shot groups. The question I also will pose with those groups you are testing is the barrel cooled between each group/shot? AR's will heat up quickly if it is the thinner barrels and if its a thick barrel it holds heat for a long time. If you are really trying to see what the rifle can do lock it in to a lead sled of some sort and shoot a round every five minutes or so. Sometimes AR barrels do not shoot well when they get hot like any other rifle. My time servicing them in the military has seen about one percent that will start to open up significantly when the barrel heats up. In addition to this I happen to own one of those very same upper receivers mated to one of their two stage trigger lowers. It shoots 55 grain bullets about the same as you mention over varget and IMR4895 for five and ten shot groups. It however does not shoot well very hot and I would estimate after five quick shots it gets cranky.

And it could also be your barrel is shooting the very best it can. Another 1 percent of the barrels I would guess that we saw would just not be as good as the rest. They would typically be fine enough for combat requirements however. With that in mind, is that accuracy you are seeing now enough for what you want? Is this a competition rifle in your mind? Or for bragging rights? From what I have seen your groups are just fine for dusting a coyote or a fox out to about 300 yards, and probably prairie dogs for a good distance too.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I mean that AR's really do not have much more accuracy than .75 MOA/100Yds. A longer rifle with a heftier cartridge, more rifling twist, and a longer sight radius is going to be necessary for getting much better than that.

Utter nonsense ... 25 years behind the curve. Out to 600 yds, 80s and 82s do not take a back seat.

Honestly, only about 6 variations have been tried, all at the short COA of 2.250". Lots of accuracy shooters get their alternate calibers out beyond 2.300", and select magazines that allow more.

You're not going to seat anything but AMAXs (75 and 80) and the rest of the 80/82 offerings (SMKs, Berger, Nosler) out to anywhere near the lands. The mag is a limiting factor in ARs ... 2.260 is spec max and a few mags let you out to about 2.63 - so the 'near the lands' loads are for single loading only (which is how 600 yd is shot in Service Rifle).

Just as Bullseye has a number of classic loads that, if they fail, lead one to suspect the barrel, ARs with a 1:8 twist should shoot heavy bullets well with a select range of loads using RL-15, 4895, Varget, 2460. If not, I'd suspect the barrel - see above on checking the twist.
/B

 

[sansone]

I'll be the contrarian ... any 1:8 RRA should shoot heavier bullets at .5 - .75 at 100 yds. Have you checked the actual twist of the barrel using a tight bore mop and a marked cleaning rod?

I use both a WOA and a RRA 20" in service rifle and they shoot comparably - nothing but 69 - 80 grain loads. 24.2gr of RL-15 for 69s and 24gr for 77 and 80s.

/Bryan

I agree that 1:8 twist SHOULD be ok with the heavies, but look at his results. Some brrls just prefer lighter pills

 

[MtnCreek]

all brass was sorted by headstamp.

This could be part of the problem. I don't think it made an inch difference at 100 yds, but it could have. Were some loads using brand x and others using brand y? Among headstamps, how consistent is the brass? If trying to get your groups down and really see the potential of the rifle, consistent, quality brass will be required.

 

[sansone]

that rifle is advertised as having a short throat. It is possible the lighter/shorter pills have a better COAL for that short throated brrl

 

[Canuck-IL]

that rifle is advertised as having a short throat.

"Short" is relative ... it's a Wylde chamber cut which is shorter than milspec but still longer than vanilla 223. Besides, he's nowhere near the lands with what's been shot so far.
/B

 

[sansone]

ok thanks for that ^^

 

[P-32]

The 6mm PPC holds the 600m record for smallest group, the 6.5G before that. .30's are literally a joke in precision shooting these days. Please fast forward the Time Machine to the present, September 2011. It's not 1975 anymore.

Appes and oranges. 30's a joke? Tell that to the "Plama" shooters.

Oh by the way the M-16/AR plateform didn't out score the 30 cal's for some time. The 168 SMK 30 cal out scored the M-16's and AR's for a number of years the further the distance. Just like the M-1 out shot the M-14 until the AMU/Crane got it figured out.

you should get off the bench and on your belly where the riflemen are.

My cobbled together AR 15 out shoots 95% of tuned Garands and M14's.

You have not seen what a High Master can do with a tuned M-14/M-1A. There are a few gun plummers left who understand the older service rifles. Your cobbled up AR would be hard pressed against a McCoy M-1. The main advantage would be the AR's lower recoil.

 

[snakeman]

you need to try some 55 grain bullets. My dads shoots great up to 60 gr. but no heavier.