Can't Get Excited about the Shotgun

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My tab was not cooperative IIRC. Maybe I'll have to induce the jam again when I'm not wearing gloves and screw with it.

It wasn't a stuck shell, it was only "stuck" in the sense that it wouldn't eject because the lifter wouldn't allow me to pump the action all the way.
 
I actually kind of wish I could get the gun good and locked up for some testing. In any case, having to perform a buttstroke to get an 870 unstuck would definitely not be a happy jam (heh heh) to find yourself in with someone breaking down your door.
 
While some of his points are not 100% accurate it seems the OP has thought through what he is most comfortable with and has made a sound decision.

While a shotgun is an acceptable HD weapon, they are highly over rated. Most HD situations are at ranges so close the shotguns is of no real advantage. Having 1 hand free can be a plus.

Patterns are so tight that they must be aimed just like a rifle inside a home. Why not just use a lighter and softer recoiling rifle. With proper ammo, over penetration is no more of a problem than with a shotgun.

A shotgun does have a much more limited range. At very close range they are no better than a handgun or rifle. Buckshot is most effective at ranges of around 25 yards or less. Hits can be made farther away, but patterns are getting pretty thin after 25 yards or so.

Most PD's are going away from shotguns and to carbines for many of these reasons.

I own handguns, shotguns and AR rifles, all set up to be used for HD. All have a place, but when I hear a bump in the night the handgun is the first thing I reach for. If someone else is not excited by a shotgun and prefers not to have and use one that is fine by me.
 
To piggyback on jmr40, there's a common problem that I see. When people evaluate firearms for various uses (home defense, bird hunting, whatever) they think only about the payload that the gun puts on target.

The size, shape, weight, concealability and handling of the gun in a given situation is very important, also.

Of course I'd rather use a load of buckshot than a .38 as a "stopper" if I am ever in the unfortunate situation to need that. However, I can have a .38 in each front pocket, fire one across my chest while aiming, and use it easily while on my back on the ground or in a confined space like a car or even my kitchen. In short, I'd rather have a .38 I can use quickly and easily than a shotgun I can't. So it all depends on the situation.
 
These last two posts convey my thinking pretty well. I know i still have a lot to learn about shotguns and its application, which is why I'm trying to get more experienced opinions. This isn't a thread bashing shotguns, but rather to put my ideas to the test.
 
I like shotguns for their versatility. Within their effective range, there is really no task they can't handle. With one shotgun, I can hunt game from squirrel to bear, As well as defend the home if need be. I can't think of any handguns or rifles that can do all of that well.
 
I'm looking for people with more shotgun experience than me to tell me why they like them. I'm considering investing more money into my new shotgun, but I need to decide if it'd be better to save my money for another firearm down the road

In real estate, the three key factors are location, location and location.

In defensive shotguns, the three key factors are power, power and power. Shotguns are different from other defensive firearms in that, at close range (where it counts most), they will literally remove bone and meat (that's a partial quote from instructor Clint Smith, BTW- not just me waxing gross here). No, a shotgun is not a 100% guaranteed one-shot stopper, but it comes as close as anything not crew-served to being one.

Shotguns have evolved over several hundred years to deliver lead onto fleeting targets quickly. That too has qualifications- the shotgun doesn't walk around and shoot itself. It has to be in the hands of a qualified shooter to be effective.

I am absolutely unabashed in my appreciation for the defensive shotgun. I literally grew up with a pumpgun in my hands, and subsequently have trained and practiced in its use for defensive purposes. I most definitely DO prefer a shotgun as a purely defensive weapon.

I would suggest that you invest, not in your hardware, but in your software. In other words, get some serious defensive shotgun training. If that doesn't introduce you to the possibilities of the shotgun for defense, I don't know what else will.

You can buy all the firearms in the world, but until you master the guns you have you will not feel comfortable or confident depending on them for defense. Thus my sig line... see below.

hth,

lpl
 
Some of your points are valid enough.

In my little apartment, my shotgun will be probably be what I grab if I have to barricade myself in my room (like if I'm home alone). If others are in the house, chances are I'll need to exit my bedroom, and the shotgun is too long for that, even if I put a pistol grip on it. I'll grab the .45 instead.

One of the good things about buckshot, as others have mentioned here before, is that it loses velocity fast, and each shot weighs less than many handgun bullets, and so will be less likely to penetrate exterior walls.
Yes, there will be more projectiles. This is where you have to make a judgement call. Do a walk around your home and property. Determine where you'll probably be firing from and in what direction, if you get into a situation outside the home. Determine if the risk of multiple projectiles outweigh the benefits.

It's capacity is greater than your revolver, and can be just as fast to reload, depending on the model.

Pump guns are fantastically reliable.

Comparing it to a rifle isn't exactly meaningful. It's usually an apples to oranges comparison. The shotgun is a multi-purpose tool. It can take game of all sizes. It's simple to use. A pump action can be fired fast enough for self-defense. Ammo is ubiquitous. A rifle has a much more narrow range of usefulness, determined by its caliber and configuration. Ammo for any given caliber except .22LR is less abundant.

Personally, I enjoy busting clays a bit more than punching holes in paper.
 
ejnogarb said:
Help convince me that it's a great firearm and that my new shotgun won't just be an investment to be sold off later down the road.
Click to expand...

Nah, just sell it. You dig your revolver, someone else will dig your shottie.
 
I have to make a point about RANGE here that the OP completely missed.

I live in a large Victorian style 2-story home. The entire home is approximately 42 feet from front to back, and the longest single room is 28 feet from one end to the other by 14 feet wide. So lets consider a human, standing, with a barrel in front of them which is maybe 3 to 4 feet. So 28-3=25 feet. The longest shot in a home-defense situation I will ever realistically be making is a whole 6 yards with a foot to spare.

Now I realize that some people have larger homes, but I really doubt that anyone has a home where you could have a shot lined up that is greater than 25 yards. I can verify from range time that 00 Buck even with an open choke (IMP CYL) still has a good pattern. So my assumption is this, that you perceive a situation where you are shooting outside.

So now I have to ask, after you have chased a threat outside of your home... WHY are you still shooting? You are not the police, your job is not to pursue and kill but eliminate the threat from being somewhere it can harm you. Basically my point is this. Many people complain that the shotgun has limited range but the way I see it, short of TEOTWAWKI no one should be making shots at such a distance that the shotgun is an ineffective weapon.

As a follow up to my range discussion, the OP mentioned the ammo capacity. Shooting a shotgun does not take a surgeon to do well and so if you have 8 or 9 rounds in the gun I don't see you needing more. Even with 3 or 4 targets that gives you 2 to 3 shots per target, and using a shot that spreads I really hope your accuracy isn't below 33%. I can hip shoot a man target at 25 yards and maintain 33% accuracy or better, so using the weapon properly no one should be that bad.

Lets be reasonable here, are your objections reflective of situations you may ACTUALLY end up in or are they just extensions of Rambo fantasies of chasing the entire RUF off your Iowa cornfield.
 
I agree that some range time is needed. You might even have fun doing it. :D

One thought that does run through my head is the psychological threat of a shotgun. From experience that I have had a person gets really polite when looking down the barrel of a shotgun. I am not sure that a pistol gains the same respect.
 
Nope, the FlexTab is a fairly modern innovation. Just sayin', the shell-between-bolt-and-lifter stoppage is really no longer a valid concern with the 870 (or at least I've never been able to make mine choke that way).
 
After reading your list the old saying "what you're not up on you're down on" came to mind. I suggest you learn how to use a shotgun properly. It just may change your perspective.
 
In trained, cool hands, the defensive shotgun is the best weapon for close range,fast encounters with life or death riding on the results.

Disagree? Watch Latham or Miculek and note how long they take with handguns to put 1/5 the energy into multiple targets compared to the same shooters armed with decent shotguns.

But do not just take our words for it. Go shoot some shotguns. A clay session of shooting doubles will show you that one can engage TWO targets moving on divers vectors and speeds and destroying them within a second of each other.

BTW, the standard 4.25" clay pigeon mirrors the width of the CNS and spine through much of the target area. Think about that......
 
I haven't seen anyone mention wound channels yet. A hit with your average 00 Buck shell has the potential of giving 9 separate wound channels all at once, causing much more damage than a single revolver bullet (ignoring the simple fact that 9 pellets of 00 Buck have more mass than a .38 bullet)

With the proper barrel and ammo, you can extend your B-zone, or the effective distance that buckshot works, out to 35 yards or even more. I have an 870 with an 18" improved cylinder police barrel that will hold ridiculously tight patterns when I shoot Hornady TAP out of it.

I did not fully appreciate the capabilities of my shotgun until I took a class with Bill Murphy, whose credos include running the Shotgun Class at Gunsite.
Investing in some training would certainly be worth your while.

Its 7 + 1 capacity is less than most non-bolt action rifles. It's also slower to reload.
Click to expand...

7+1 is still more than a revolver, and a shotgun is quicker to reload than a revolver. The cool thing about my 870 is that I can reload it with it still being ready to shoot - you can't do that with a revolver. Also, it is quite simple to load the next round as a slug if you find it necessary to change your ammo on the fly.
 
In trained, cool hands, the defensive shotgun is the best weapon for close range,fast encounters with life or death riding on the results.
Click to expand...

"Best" is always a tough prospect. I could easily concur with "very good" but the superlative raises some questions. You often see those who are knowingly going into the type of encounter you describe armed with either sub guns or M4s or something of that ilk. You also see some using shotguns. They ostensibly could choose what platform they wanted to use. I am going to the local SWAT range to shoot with some officers soon perhaps I will remember to ask opinions on the matter from some folks with much more real world experience than you or I or, with all due respect to them (and I have a lot for their abilities), Mr. Miculek or Mr. Latham for that matter (if I misrepresent your background and you have in fact participated in multiple CQB fire fights, and knowing gone into what could have been many more, and have first hand experience using the a fore mentioned weapons firing shots "in anger" then I'll gladly recant as to you and offer my apologies).

None of the above is intended to deride the shotgun as a very formidable weapon.
 
you won't appreciate your shotgun until you need to use it! You get the multiple impact trauma on your target and all else being equal, it is more effective than any handgun for stopping an intruder....I don't care what anyone tells you. Its not pretty, but it works, especially with buckshot.
 
Girodin, my brief combat experience was with M 16s and an M14. I did some guard duty with a 97, but never used it when in harm's way.

The folks you mention have little choice as to their weapons, they get issued something and have to deal with the consequences if it's wrong for the mission. Shotguns turn up in Hot Zones with amazing regularity even when not issued.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "Best". Perhaps "Commonly accepted as quite effective" would have bothered you less.

However, for me, it is best.
 
The folks you mention have little choice as to their weapons, they get issued something and have to deal with the consequences if it's wrong for the mission.
Click to expand...

That is incorrect to say there is no discretion in the platform used in a given situation, at least as to some individuals. My SWAT officer friend carries in his squad car an MP5, a Mossberg shotgun, and a AR.

Even if we accept they are issued either a shotgun or a subgun or an AR/M4 and cannot possibly get their hands on one over another, we have to assume that someone somewhere considered what would be "best" to issue to a SWAT team who is called upon to engage in "close range,fast encounters with life or death riding on the results." Surely they didn't throw a dart at pictures on the wall to select the gear issued. I know there are issues that can get in the way of the best gear being chosen when decisions are made by higher ups but I don't think that can account for all the M4s and MP5s particularly considering they are more expensive than a pump gun.

Again I do not dispute the effectiveness of a shot as a CQB weapon. Is it the, without exception, best weapon for it? That's a different question. One that seemingly certain people with a wealth of real world experience to guide them are answering differently.

I will try to get the thoughts of an admittedly small and not randomly selected sample of such people and report back. I, might have an opinion. We are all free to have our opinions. That said, I do not consider myself qualified to offer a very meaningful or authoritative opinion on the matter.
 
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