Caps only firered second time struck.

[BML]

Last night I had a number of misfirers where the caps on my ROA did not go off at first attempt but it did on the second.
Could this be because they were a year or two old?
Could it be because they were not seated properly and if so is there a tool that one could use to push them firmly home with the danger of setting them off?
I was using CCI No 11s

 

[SAA]

Chances are the caps were a tad too small for the nipples.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Your caps were not seated all the way.
The first hammer strike seated them & the second set them off.
Fully seated caps that fit the nipples correctly fire every time.
I hate to sound like the proverbial broken record, but changing your nips to Treso nips and using Remington #10 caps, seated with a dowel will make all yer ignition problems go away.
I shoot cap guns every week at cowboy matches and have not had a failure to fire on the first hit for many years.
All my cap guns wear Treso nips and I only use Rem #10s.
I cap the guns and seat the caps solidly with the dowel end of an old muzzleloading short starter.

I know a few shooters who use standard Ruger nips and Rem #10s and they get pretty good results, but not 100% reliability.

The age of the caps does not seem to matter, as I clear the nips prior to the first loading with old Remington #12 caps I've had for about 20 years.

Many folks seat 'em with a short piece of dowel or a piece of deer antler.

This has been my experience.
--Dawg

 

[makos_goods]

BML,
Unfortunately you are already using the largest "non-musket" caps that are currently offered. As others have said it sounds like they are not fully seated. Do you still have the original tubes on that pistol? Also, is it a blued or a stainless steel ROA?

Has your hammer spring been lightened? Are the tubes fouled on the outside? Was the pistol new or did you buy it used? How much had you shot it before you started having these issues? I'm asking these questions because I am trying to determine the state of your revolver.

I use a seating stick to assure they are seated, it only requires a very light pressure. I use a wooden dowel with a bologna (angled) cut on the end so that the end is square to the face of the cap when I apply the pressure. ROAs usually don't have ignition issues, especially with #11 caps. Before I send you off to buy some Treso tubes I would like to know a bit more about your revolver.

This is a link to a primer about tubes (cones) and their relationship to the hammer face and cap sizes. Normally I would post this primer here as well, but I have had some issues with people and some of my materials on this site:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35696.msg457397.html#msg457397


It illustrates Colt's pattern pistols, but it applies to any percussion revolver.

Regards,
Mako

 

[Busyhands94]

i found that CCI #11s are unreliable in my guns.

 

[wasatch]

Find some Butler Creek Nipples

Stainless Butler Creek nipples have small flash holes like Treso nipples and are considerbly cheaper in price.

CCI 11s will work every time with them, with only slight pressure to seat them.

I am not a fan of Treso nipples, they have let me down and cost me several matches due to mushrooming.

I shoot 5 1/2 SS ROAs

Wasatch

 

[makos_goods]

Stainless Butler Creek nipples have small flash holes like Treso nipples and are considerbly cheaper in price.

CCI 11s will work every time with them, with only slight pressure to seat them.

I am not a fan of Treso nipples, they have let me down and cost me several matches due to mushrooming.

I shoot 5 1/2 SS ROAs

Wasatch

Wasatch,
You might be surprised to find that the Aluminum Bronze Ampco alloy is harder and has a higher tensile strength than the Stainless Steel Butler Creek uses. If you are mushrooming heads it's not because the Treso tubes are softer or not as strong. If you cross sectioned the Butler Creek tubes you would also find they have a different internal geometry.

I actually have samples of almost all of the tubes that are available aftermarket as well as factory tubes from any and every reproduction available. I also have tubes from original Colt's and I have two from a Remington New Army model (one is worn out and the other is so-so).

~Mako

 

[George Mabry]

I had that exact problem with my ROA when I was using CCI caps. I'd use an antler tip and press the caps on as hard as I dared and they still didn't seat fully enough to fire on the first snap. I started using Remington #11s and the problem was solved. I haven't tried the Remington #10s yet but give the 11s a try and I think you'll be happy with the result.

George

 

[ridgerunner1965]

as previous poster says it can be all about the caps.they have to be fully seated. the nipples on my roa are a bit small, not sure what kind they are.i have to pinch the caps a bit to get them to stay on and push them down with a wood dowel.cap and ball revolvers are all about knowing your gun. if yu have a good functioning roa and it aint fireing its prob cuz yu dont know it well enuf.jus keep practicing and yull get it.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I had the same problem in that the caps would require two hits with the hammer, the nipples were taken out and found to be mushroomed so I took a Dremel to them to even them out diameter wise,also switched to shorter Remington #11's from CCI #11's ....problem solved.
I bought some Remington #10's and the are even longer than the CCI #11's... will have to use them on my rifle as the wont work on any of my revolvers.
Here is a picture taken at the range the other day when I took all my black powder handguns out for some shooting fun.

 

[malpaismike]

Hello the camp! Mighty fine, Skinny; still cleanin' are ya? I've shot ROAs for buku yr now. The only time they fail is when I do. I tried lighter springs; NOT. I tried factory nipples; NOT. I tried #10 caps; NOT.
My pistols work best when I abuse the living schmidt out of them. To facilitate matches, and participate more in posse duties, I had a spare set of cyl's fitted. Great improvement.
Per PD's comment, I use an antler pusher. I made sure I created a flat spot that allowed for max pressure on seating the cap. #11 CCIs and TRESO been berry berry good to me. My .02, ymmv. See ya round the campfire. mm

 

[makos_goods]

...switched to shorter Remington #11's from CCI #11's ....problem solved.
I bought some Remington #10's and the are even longer than the CCI #11's... will have to use them on my rifle as the wont work on any of my revolvers...

Skinny 1950,
Don't confuse the exterior dimensions with the actual functional dimensions of the cap which are the Inside Diameter and the Internal height. This link is to the most current chart I have of all caps smaller than musket size for Remington, CCI and RWS.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35696.msg489781.html#msg489781

The Remington #11 caps are actually .002" "taller" than the CCI #11 caps internally because there is more priming compound in a CCI than a Remington cap. The internal height of a Rem #11 is .115" and the CCI #11 is .113". They have the same I.D.s so they fit pretty much identically. If you look at the entire thread that link takes you to you will see the differences between the manufacturers.

This link to a different thread helps explain the fit differences of different length caps with the same I.D.s which is how Remington caps fit.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35422.msg455339.html#msg455339

Tubes are tapered, hence they are called "cones." Read the entirety of those two threads and you will understand how caps fit and why the different fitting philosophy by the three manufacturers work. It will also help you understand why a CCI # 10 and a Remington #10 cap will fit the same cone even though the external dimensions of the caps appear different. Remington #11, CCI #11 and RWS 1075 and 1075Plus caps all fit the same cones as well.

One last thing note the chart provided in Dec. of last year has numbers that are slightly different from the current chart in June of this year that appears in the "Percussion Primer: Correct Cone Length" thread. As I added data points there was a slight shift in the median dimensions on some of the features. There are now hundreds of Remington measurements that show on the chart. I actually have 100 sets of CCI #11 measurements and measurements for the CCI #10 caps are still being taken. My Intern will be back in two weeks and I'll post the updated CCI dimensions when I get both sizes completed. I can tell you before it's even posted there is only a shift of less than .002" in the internal height with the CCI #11 caps.

I need to make another reference thread just describing the interior relationships of each cap.

~Mako

 

[pohill]

This works for me:
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

One thing you must take into account when trying to fit a cap to a nipple is black powder fouling - a cap that fits perfectly when you first get to the range might not fit when the nipples get fouled. I cannot clean a nipple completely unless I take it out of the cylinder - only half is exposed to a brush, rag, etc. If I start with a cap that has to be squeezed to fit at first, that cap will fit snuggly as the nipple gets dirty.

 

[BML]

Many thanks for such a wide collection of information.

 

[Busyhands94]

come to think of it i did have problems with my pistols not being reliable enough, i turned a tiny bit of steel off the nipple so it was a tad shorter, and re-blued them. then, i used Remington #10s. no misfires and almost 100% reliability in almost all conditions i have shot in.