Car approaching a pedestrian fast at night

[killchain]

Hello all. Thought I would run this by you and get some constructive criticism.

I was walking home last night from the local movie rental place at about 10pm. My town isn't very rowdy or anything like that, but I did have kind of a scare.

I was walking down the street on the side walk with a friend, and a white Accord cruises by with four people in it. Music bumping, all that. It gets down about 200 meters, slams on the brakes, flips a u-turn and comes barreling back up the street at us full-bore.

I was carrying, my friend doesn't.

As I took about four steps back off of the side walk into the grass, I told my friend to get his phone out and get behind a tree. I didn't say "call 911" because we both kind of assumed that's what I meant. As the car approached, I started to lift my shirt to grab my CCW (which happened to be an FNP-40 at the time.) These guys seem to slow down as they see this and cruise on by (albeit still speeding) and proceed down the street, hang a left at the stop sign, and disappear.

We ended up not calling 911, not reporting it, and just shaking it off and continuing to where we were going.

I'd like some constructive criticism on this. I welcome questions too.

 

[uspJ]

That would have put me on edge as well. I think you did good getting of the sidewalk and preparing should things go south. It was also a good move to go ahead and prepare your friend to call 911. If the car had returned and continued it's antics I would have called the police anyway and reported the wreckless driving. Most likely it was a bunch of idiots playing around and showing off for his friends. Good job being alert and prepared to defend yourself and your friend.

 

[Bovice]

bear in mind that any shots you may have fired probably won't do well through a windshield. I saw it on some TV program once. Depending on what angle the bullet hit the windshield at, it was deflected someplace else inside the car. Although the bullets might all land right in front of the driver's seat, that doesn't mean they got hit.

You would be best served getting behind a tree as well.

 

[uspJ]

bear in mind that any shots you may have fired probably won't do well through a windshield. I saw it on some TV program once. Depending on what angle the bullet hit the windshield at, it was deflected someplace else inside the car. Although the bullets might all land right in front of the driver's seat, that doesn't mean they got hit.

You would be best served getting behind a tree as well.

Agreed.

I was under the impression that the OP was readying himself should the guys get out of the car and attack. If they were to use the car as a weapon you would have been out of luck in the open, and would need to find a sufficient barricade.

 

[killchain]

Agreed.

I was under the impression that the OP was readying himself should the guys get out of the car and attack. If they were to use the car as a weapon you would have been out of luck in the open, and would need to find a sufficient barricade.

Yes, I was expecting them to get out of the car, not be hit with the car. That is something to consider, however. I suppose if I was looking to hurt someone in my position, I'd just use the bumper.

I also had Winchester Ranger SXT's in the FNP40. I don't know how well they would have worked through a windshield.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think you brandished too early. There was no indication before you brandished that the occupants of the car had any interest in you. They, in your account, took an interest at that point. Let's say your new friends then went around the block to give themselves time to lock and load, then come back, having viewed your brandishing as macho posturing. Now you're in a gunfight, potentially with 3 shooters and a getaway driver.

You did well taking cover and evasive action.

Did you get a license plate number?

 

[Ryder]

Most I would have done would be to put myself to the inside of my friend so as to give myself a clear line of sight but there has never been a driveby shooting of pedestriants in this county to my knowledge. What if they had turned around to ask directions and saw you reaching for a gun? You could be posting from jail right now.

I am confident enough in my ability to wait until a threat becomes evident. Waiting puts me at no great disadvantage. If anything it puts them at a disadvantage by causing them to assume I am unarmed. Not that I want to bait people into getting themselves shot, that's just how it works if they have evil intent.

 

[spyder1911]

Testing done by the guys at Box O' Truth shed some light on this subject.

The Buick O' Truth

 

[Cosmoline]

I've had a few run-ins with angry drivers over the years. Evasion is often the best approach, since a car cannot turn as fast as a pedestrian and is pretty restricted off the road. Head off at a right angle, or better yet go the opposite way down a one-way street if available.

As far as your returning of fire (if that comes up), your best position is behind the vehicle. Both for your ease of aiming and the limitations this puts on their arc of fire. Trying to shoot at it as it crosses in front of you both exposes you to the passengers' fire and forces you to try to hit a laterally-moving target. Not easy. Shooting at the front exposes you to the fire of anyone in front smart enough to just shoot the glass out, not to mention the threat of the car itself. Whereas a car moving away down a straight road is a good target. That's where your best shooting will be--before they can turn around and try again.

 

[TexasRifleman]

What if they had turned around to ask directions and saw you reaching for a gun? You could be posting from jail right now.

That feeling in your gut that says 'something isn't quite right' is very often correct.

When you turn around to ask someone directions do you usually hang a u and floor it to get back to them?

And this may not really meet the definition of "brandish" in Washington, depends on how much of the firearm was exposed (if any).

RCW 9.41.270 "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

Sounds like the OP listened to that little voice, and it was right. The only thing to reconsider is maybe the calling of the cops. If they DID happen to be completely innocent you don't want them to be the first people calling the cops. The first person to call is the 'complainant', everyone else is a 'suspect'.

 

[LibShooter]

There's a time to flee and a time to fight. This sound like a perfect time to run away from the road.

 

[Kleanbore]

I was walking down the street on the side walk with a friend, and a white Accord cruises by with four people in it. Music bumping, all that. It gets down about 200 meters, slams on the brakes, flips a u-turn and comes barreling back up the street at us full-bore.

"At us", or just back in he direction from whence they had come? Have you ever decided to turn around and go back for some perfectly innocent reason?

I was carrying, my friend doesn't.

Would you have done anything differently had you not been carrying?

As the car approached, I started to lift my shirt to grab my CCW (which happened to be an FNP-40 at the time.)

While the noisy car with apparently unruly passengers may have been unnerving, what specific facts would you have been able to articulate that would indicate that you had had reason to believe that you had been in imminent danger, had your action come into question?

We ended up not calling 911, not reporting it, and just shaking it off and continuing to where we were going.

Suppose that they had reported it. Would you not have ended up with a lot more more difficulty in justifying what would have been reported as a threatening action on your part?

I'd like some constructive criticism on this.

None of use were there, but the story does not seem to describe a situation involving imminent danger and immediate necessity. Remember that Your gun is your last resort, and should come into play if and only if you have reason to believe that you will need to use it.

Yes, it was undoubdtedly unnerving, but what made you believe that the peoples' actions had anything to do with you? Whatt was your justification for exposing your firearm? Why did you not also get behind a tree?

 

[omegaflame]

He didn't draw the pistol though, much less brandish it.

He was just ready too if the situation went south.

 

[gun guy]

The first rule, law, and truth, to a gunfight, and I have been in many, is to avoid it, run from it, if at all possible. The second is to find hard soild cover. If it had been a car full of gang bangers (for lack of a better term) you could have found yourself overwhelmed and out gunned. A very bad place to be in a gunfight. Taking cover, calling 911, and looking for escape paths should have been your first thoughts. Just a suggestion.

 

[kgpcr]

Man i would not get ready to shoot here. When i was a teen many years ago we would cruise around with our Led Zeplin and Kiss cranked up. Back then that was the rap of the day. We would burn rubber and then slow down as to not accumulate to many tickets. I would have kept an eye on them but not called 911 unless i had a reason to. My opinion is many people walk around thinking every thing is a threat are are just plain paranoid. Thats no way to go through life. as far as a car load of gangbangers how do you know they were?? If it was i would not be afraid of a gunfight as i know i can put more rounds on target than they can even though i am out numbered. also those kind of punks will piss their pants under fire. I wont as i have been there. If you have to take cover and take care of business but i would not have given it any real concern just gotten off the road.

 

[killchain]

"At us", or just back in he direction from whence they had come? Have you ever decided to turn around and go back for some perfectly innocent reason?

It was "at us," and also "back in the direction they had come from."

Yes, I have. I actually did something similar to this in a park when I was younger, and the volunteer police officer that caught me tried to peg me with a reckless driving ticket. Good thing it didn't stick.

I imagine that this was just a misunderstanding, and these kids didn't think about how their reactions would bounce around in my head.

Would you have done anything differently had you not been carrying?

Yes. I wouldn't have thought of drawing a pistol. According to RCW's, I have no duty to retreat, and retreating just isn't something I think of to be honest.

While the noisy car with apparently unruly passengers may have been unnerving, what specific facts would you have been able to articulate that would indicate that you had had reason to believe that you had been in imminent danger, had your action come into question?

I would have told the authorities, whomever they turned out to be, the situation... for better or worse, haha. See, the fact is I wouldn't have fired unless the guys inside exited it and came at me. As a matter of fact, shooting the windshield never crossed my mind at all.

Suppose that they had reported it. Would you not have ended up with a lot more more difficulty in justifying what would have been reported as a threatening action on your part?

Yes, I would have had difficulty in explaining my actions. I am not a believer in calling 911 every time something odd goes on, though. As you've pointed out multiple times, these were probably just kids being dumb. I don't see a reason to call the police on kids being dumb... I was a dumb kid once.

None of use were there, but the story does not seem to describe a situation involving imminent danger and immediate necessity. Remember that Your gun is your last resort, and should come into play if and only if you have reason to believe that you will need to use it.

Duly noted. I want to reiterate that I lifted my shirt and grasped my CCW, but I did not "brandish" it or even remove it from the holster. If anything, I was just prepping for a bad time that never happened. I was also wearing a sweater (it was kinda cold) and I imagine in headlights I was a guy with his hand under his sweater.

Yes, it was undoubdtedly unnerving, but what made you believe that the peoples' actions had anything to do with you? Whatt was your justification for exposing your firearm? Why did you not also get behind a tree?

I thought it might have had something to do with me because my friend and I were the only ones on a dark street at 10pm, and that is not normal "commuter behavior." I want to reiterate again that I lifted my shirt and grasped my firearm, I did not "expose it" if you're implying that I brandished or drew it from its holster. And I didn't get behind a tree because I didn't think about it at the time.

 

[mljdeckard]

I would still report it. Now, today.

It's likely nothing, and will hit the trash can as they hang up the phone. But on the other hand, what if your local cops have been trying to track a handful of local thugs with this MO for mischief, thefts, etc? They like to have all the pieces of the puzzle they can get.

 

[thorazine]

Suppose that they had reported it.

lol unlikely.

Based on the description of the automobile (bumpin some tunes heh) I bet the occupants probably have prior records... drugs present on their person or in the automobile... etc...

Last thing they want is LE involvement.

Just a wild guess.

 

[Kleanbore]

... unlikely [that they would have reported it].

Based on the description of the automobile (bumpin some tunes heh) I bet the occupants probably have prior records... drugs present on their person or in the automobile... etc...

No basis for that assumption, I'm afraid. That's what the kids around here do when they've first started to drive, at least until there have been enough complaints. That, and "driving around in [their] automobile, [with] no particular place to go", as Chuck Berry put it. By the way, high-volume sound systems have become a major cause of noise-induced permanent hearing loss in young people these days.

Last thing they want is LE involvement.

We don't know what anyone will do when they see someone with a gun at tonight, particularly if they felt threatened or see calling the police as a way of having more excitement.

Just a wild guess.

Yeah.

 

[Sam1911]

retreating just isn't something I think of to be honest.

Fortunately, you've now had some good prompting to revisit your personal defensive strategies.

Regardless of what the law technically says you may be allowed to do ("no duty to retreat"), the best result of any gun fight is not being involved at all.

1) You may be a great shot and they may be (a bunch of) poor shots but that is no promise that you'll be unharmed or even still alive when the shooting stops. There are no guarantees and the risks are extreme. Leaving is MUCH better than rolling the dice that your shots will land and theirs won't.

2) Regardless of the how clear-cut the legal text seems to be, protecting you against prosecution in a "self-defense" shooting, the real world is not clear-cut and any time you fire a gun in a violent encounter you run a significant risk of winding up charged with a crime. You saw it as self-defense but the arresting officer didn't agree with you. You THOUGHT you saw a weapon, but there was none found on the attacker. The witnesses can't or won't confirm your version of what happened. Etc.

You may prevail. The law may exonerate you. The law MAY even help insulate you from civil suits as well. But you'll spend tens of thousands of dollars (or more) by the time you're out of court and your shooting is proved "good." Your financial situation, job, marriage, relationships, home, and very freedom may all be in jeopardy as you wade through months or years of legal issues. Hey, there's some chance the cops may pat you on the back and say, "Nice job, son! Good shootin'!" But those chances are pretty slim, and the alternatives are all ... at least ... very expensive.

3) You just DON'T want to kill anyone. That's human nature. A great many "winners" of "good" shootings go on to experience lifelong trauma related to the experience. Doubt, second-guessing, regret, nightmares, etc. Maybe you're stone cold solid and that won't happen to you. Unfortunately, you won't know until it's considerably too late.

Using a weapon on another human being is an absolute LAST resort. Not something you choose to do if provoked -- something you're FORCED to do to save your life or the lives of loved ones.

One of the concepts we harp on here is "Situational Awareness." S.A. attempts to give you the ability to choose to avoid -- to "retreat" as you put it -- because that is in every way a FAR better choice than carrying the battle to the aggressor.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Very well said,Sam1911.

 

[ForumSurfer]

As I took about four steps back off of the side walk into the grass, I told my friend to get his phone out and get behind a tree.

I can't say I would have done anything different. I would have made my way to the tree while still facing the car, assuming he was driving or swerving at me, not in my direction. But since he was the only car as you noted, that changes things and I would have done as you did. I will say that you should call 911 so as to not risk being reported as "the guy who looked at us threateningly with his hand under his red sweater." I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't have called until they made a second pass, at which point I'd definitely move myself to the tree(s) and would have told my friend to call 911 now.

I would have made the tree(s) my friend. Whether the guys use the vehicle or a weapon against me, I stand a pretty good chance of survival with tree(s) between us.

As Sam pointed out, you better rethink your stance on "retreat." It is by no means a sign of weakness. Once you have kids, avoiding a gun fight becomes a much more desirable thing if it is possible. Why risk loved one's survival to win a fight when you can avoid it altogether and protect your family's life? Isn't that the primary purpose to carrying (preservation of myself or my family)? In this situation, you mentioned the tree. Going to get behind that tree if things start looking bad is more of "actively seeking cover" than a retreat.

 

[Cosmoline]

Thats no way to go through life. as far as a car load of gangbangers how do you know they were?

By the time you figure it out for sure, it will be WAY too late to do anything about it. Listening to the little voice is critical. If it looks odd, it is odd. If it seems out of place, it is out of place. In this case the screeching to a halt and coming back then slowing may be nothing, but it's also classic behavior running up to a drive-by shooting because one of the animals figured you flipped the wrong sign or got you confused with someone else. Being ready and taking evasive or defensive action is certainly called for.

 

[ForumSurfer]

When i was a teen many years ago we would cruise around with our Led Zeplin and Kiss cranked up.

If it looks odd, it is odd. If it seems out of place, it is out of place. In this case the screeching to a halt and coming back then slowing may be nothing,...

Agree with Cosmo.

Times have changed drastically since people were riding around blasting Zepplin. Times have changed drastically since my generation ran around blasting Alice in Chains.

It took me dating a lawyer-to-be who worked with "troubled" youth to realize just how sadly I had underestimated the current gang problems and utterly despicable behavior of some of our youth, even out in rural areas such as mine. Hearing the crimes these kids (not always gang related) have committed (repeatedly!?!?!) literally disgusted me after time. Her point of view changed drastically. She really wanted to help troubled youth, as in it was her life-long political, professional and religious goal. Some of these kids these days...man, troubling. I watched these kids with their language, their behaviors, their actions and their crimes crush this woman and her dreams over the coarse of year; coming home from work each day crying her eyes out. It doesn''t even seem like something you could build a tolerance too imo. She has since given up due to that year working with the worst of the worst (rural area, not inner city where gangs are much worse), and is a pursuing a career as a prosecuting attorney elsewhere. Admittedly, it changed some of my views on crime, punishment, rehabilitation, home defense and life in general.

These days, it is better safe than sorry. The only car on the road behaving like that would set off my alarm bells, as well. I wouldn't be thinking "this could be gang bangers," I would be thinking "this car is acting odd right here, right now."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by killchain: I want to reiterate again that I lifted my shirt and grasped my firearm, I did not "expose it" if you're implying that I brandished or drew it from its holster.

Careful.

Where I live, unless one is a peace officer, one may not "exhibit a firearm in a threatening manner" except when "engaged in a lawful act of self defense." The term "exhibit" is not defined in the law; an appeals court has ruled that one need not show the gun to violate the statute.

In Arizona, after at least some individuals ended up with criminal convictions for aggravated assault for resorting to preparation to pull a gun, they changed the law to permit the "defensive display of a firearm" under certain conditions when it is necessary; "defensive display" includes putting one's hand on it. I cannot judge from the story as related here, but I doubt that being concerned about a loud car changing direction for reasons unknown would justify "defensive display" in Arizona.

The definition of "brandishing", etc. aside, it is important to understand that any act (1) intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact (2) that causes apprehension of such contact in someone else would generally constitute assault. The classification generally gets a lot more severe whenever a firearm is involved. When one says that the gun is a last resort, that doesn't just apply to shooting it; it applies to bringing it into play in any manner.

Legal considerations aside, the tactical response is worthy of discussion. The guys might have been out for a ride in the car, having innocent fun immaturely--or maybe not. Had they been a real threat to you and your friend, standing in the open does not seem to me a good way to defend yourself, armed or not. Perhaps they might have chosen to run you down--or as Cosmoline suggests, to gun you down. A person standing on the grass with his hand on his gun wouldn't stand a chance in a drive-by shooting.

Again, I wasn't there, but if the behavior of the guys in the car caused concern, it was appropriate to take appropriate steps, such as getting out of harm's way. Better safe than sorry, both legally and tactically.

I think everyone should keep Sam1911's note handy for future reference. It's great advice on how to avoid being killed, injured, charged, convicted, or combinations of the above.

This is also worth studying:

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

One other thing. In the event of any kind of confrontion involving violence or criminal contact or any element of same, it behooves one to be the first to report it.