I searched but didn't really see an answer to this so here it goes. Last night the wife and I were talking about a rise in Carjackings. She stated that she would probably give in to the perp with a gun aimed at her face. (she has no interest in firearms and no CCW) Well We have a 2 year old that rides in the backseat and I told her that I was under the impression that Carjackers don't give you time to take him out of the car seat and depart the vehicle. What to do? Besides lock the doors? Its a 04 Toyota highlander so doors lock automaticaly. I said Gas it. Thats a 2 ton weapon. Her reply was what if someone is in front of you. I say still gas it. From a stop a 5 or 6 foot jump into a vehicle in front of you would not be hard enough to really injure you but it would sure let others know that something is going on. I would never want to have anyone innocent injured but I would prefer someone else getting whiplash over having a carjack with a kidnapping. What would you reccomend? Thanks
car jacking defenses
- Thread starter Ed
- Start date
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i think alot of it would depend on what the situation is. sitting in traffic, in a parking lot, am i in the car or unocking the door, is the car running or not?? my reaction would most definately vary from gas it, struggle, to give up my car. in your scenario it seems that you are in the car with it running and either sitting in traffic or at a light/stop sign. although carjacking would be a suprise in my area, i would probably floor it. if my ccw isn't on me it's under the seat. i don't need the bg getting a weapon on top of it all. i also think that someone around here would hesitate to actually shoot if i didn't give up my car, especially in traffic.
clubsoda22
member
Some carjackers are genuinely stupid. I heared about one that tried to do it like in the movies. He stepped out infront of the car and pointed a gun. I guess he figured the guy would stop his car and get out yelling "don't shoot me! Don't shoot me!"
Didn't work that way.
Guy in the car gassed it and hit the guy doing 50mph. SPLAT!
Didn't work that way.
Guy in the car gassed it and hit the guy doing 50mph. SPLAT!
Eskimo Jim
Member
Ed,
Here's my recommendations:
1) always leave enough room between your car and the car ahead of you. This allows you to pull out around the car ahead of you if a carjacker tries to engage you. YOu have a way out.
2) avoid being in the center lane while stopped at a traffic light, ie getting boxed in. Same reason as number 1 above.
3) keep the doors locked
4) be observant to the pedestrians around you but don't make eye contact. This is imperative when walking to your car. This is probably the best one.
5) be careful of someone 'rear ending you' by 'accident'. Causing a staged accident gets the driver out of the car almost all the time. This makes the driver vulnerable to assault. If you are in a bad part of town and this happens, I'd suggest driving to the nearest police station or police car.
6) if possible, keep your comminications open, cell phone to call the police as needed.
7) lay on the horn. It will bring other's attention to you which the BG doesn't want.
8) maybe ask your local police department for tips. Afterall, they typically take the reports of the crimes and generally have a good idea how these goblins operate. Since they collect the information on the goblins modus operandi, they might be able to recommend some counter tactics that will help you.
I hope that helps you out.
-Jim
Here's my recommendations:
1) always leave enough room between your car and the car ahead of you. This allows you to pull out around the car ahead of you if a carjacker tries to engage you. YOu have a way out.
2) avoid being in the center lane while stopped at a traffic light, ie getting boxed in. Same reason as number 1 above.
3) keep the doors locked
4) be observant to the pedestrians around you but don't make eye contact. This is imperative when walking to your car. This is probably the best one.
5) be careful of someone 'rear ending you' by 'accident'. Causing a staged accident gets the driver out of the car almost all the time. This makes the driver vulnerable to assault. If you are in a bad part of town and this happens, I'd suggest driving to the nearest police station or police car.
6) if possible, keep your comminications open, cell phone to call the police as needed.
7) lay on the horn. It will bring other's attention to you which the BG doesn't want.
8) maybe ask your local police department for tips. Afterall, they typically take the reports of the crimes and generally have a good idea how these goblins operate. Since they collect the information on the goblins modus operandi, they might be able to recommend some counter tactics that will help you.
I hope that helps you out.
-Jim
Preacherman
Member
Eskimo Jim
Member
Not to high jack the thread (no pun intended)
Stupid car jacker story:
Worcester, MA in the early 1990s a car jacker tried to steal a car outside a court house. The goblin succeeded on getting the driver out of the car but the goblin had to give up his ill gotten gains, because he couldn't drive a standard transmission car!!
-Jim
Stupid car jacker story:
Worcester, MA in the early 1990s a car jacker tried to steal a car outside a court house. The goblin succeeded on getting the driver out of the car but the goblin had to give up his ill gotten gains, because he couldn't drive a standard transmission car!!
-Jim
Take a look at this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66635 It describes a lot of the more common carjacking attacks, which may give you some ideas about how to deal with one.
pax
pax
JamisJockey
member
#9
Never 'park' at a stoplight/sign. Always leave the car in gear.
#10
Never leave valuables in plain view.
Never 'park' at a stoplight/sign. Always leave the car in gear.
#10
Never leave valuables in plain view.
Escape, but escape PROPERLY
Given the size and strength of the modern SUV, why do you shrug off the injury potential of kinetic energy transfer, even if it occurs in close quarters?
Any why is a degree of injury acceptable to the other driver, as you allude to? Your wife's jeopardy, unfortunate though it may be, does not grant to her the authority to force others into her reduced circumstances. If she wants the attention of others, tell her to hold down the steering wheel button that is marked with a trumpet icon.
It's great that this forum allows for the dissection of assumptions.
TM
NO. If someone's wifey does that to my car, she'll have to worry about more than just an attempted carjacking. She's just provided the incentive I need to put my K2500HD in Reverse and slam the Toy right back.
Given the size and strength of the modern SUV, why do you shrug off the injury potential of kinetic energy transfer, even if it occurs in close quarters?
Any why is a degree of injury acceptable to the other driver, as you allude to? Your wife's jeopardy, unfortunate though it may be, does not grant to her the authority to force others into her reduced circumstances. If she wants the attention of others, tell her to hold down the steering wheel button that is marked with a trumpet icon.
Yes. Convince the little woman of the importance of understanding and practicing this habit.
True...but this could mean the driver of either vehicle.
It's great that this forum allows for the dissection of assumptions.
TM
Dorrin79
Member
I meant to post this a couple months ago when it happened, and this thread jogged my memory.
Basically, my brother was the victim (sort of) of an attempted carjacking in Houston a couple months back.
He was sitting at a light, windows 1/2 way down, jamming out to some music when a large man walked right up to the car and tried to open the door (this was about 2 o'clock in the afternoon!)
Finding it locked, he then started to jam his arm through the open space in the window and reach for the lock.
Fortunately for my brother, he keeps his "truck gun", a Romanian SAR-3 (?) in 5.45x39 locked and loaded behind the seat at all times. (he's too young for CCW, being only 20)
He reached around behind the seat, grabbed the AK by the pistol grip, and brought it up against the window basically touching the BG's forehead.
According to my brother, the BG's eyes did something like this
and he set a new record for the 100 yd dash while my brother tore out of there at top speed. He called me to relate the story as he was driving home.
So basically - keep your doors locked, and a weapon handy (if you can)
Basically, my brother was the victim (sort of) of an attempted carjacking in Houston a couple months back.
He was sitting at a light, windows 1/2 way down, jamming out to some music when a large man walked right up to the car and tried to open the door (this was about 2 o'clock in the afternoon!)
Finding it locked, he then started to jam his arm through the open space in the window and reach for the lock.
Fortunately for my brother, he keeps his "truck gun", a Romanian SAR-3 (?) in 5.45x39 locked and loaded behind the seat at all times. (he's too young for CCW, being only 20)
He reached around behind the seat, grabbed the AK by the pistol grip, and brought it up against the window basically touching the BG's forehead.
According to my brother, the BG's eyes did something like this
and he set a new record for the 100 yd dash while my brother tore out of there at top speed. He called me to relate the story as he was driving home.So basically - keep your doors locked, and a weapon handy (if you can)
clubsoda22
member
In PA you can't drive around with a loaded weapon in the car unless you have a CCW.
TallPine
Member
In MT you can't drive around with a loaded weapon in the car unless you have a CAR.
The flamethrower Preacherman posted is pretty cool, but for maximum security I think you ought to invest in a Trunk Monkey.
~W
~W
"NO. If someone's wifey does that to my car, she'll have to worry about more than just an attempted carjacking. She's just provided the incentive I need to put my K2500HD in Reverse and slam the Toy right back."
I understand your argument, but that would be what is called road rage. How are you to know that she wasn't having a heart attack, or that her foot slipped or someone didn't hit her? Are you telling me that if someone hit your car from behind the first thing that you would do is without even thinking start ramming back?
"Given the size and strength of the modern SUV, why do you shrug off the injury potential of kinetic energy transfer, even if it occurs in close quarters?
Any why is a degree of injury acceptable to the other driver, as you allude to? Your wife's jeopardy, unfortunate though it may be, does not grant to her the authority to force others into her reduced circumstances"
The modern SUV is bigger than a Highlander which is built on a Camery frame. I would not shrug off anyones injury. And if this event happened I would make every effort to pay for any injuries my family caused.
She has no athority to draw in anyone else you are correct. But as the father of a 2 year old, when I see the options being,
a. Possibly causing a small injury and yes causing minor dammage to anothers vehicle. I was talking about from about 4 or 5 feet and the engine in a Highlander isn't that big.
or
b. Having a carjacker kidnap my son in the backseat.
No choice, I'll pay for what I cause.
"If she wants the attention of others, tell her to hold down the steering wheel button that is marked with a trumpet icon"
Yes that is a good idea. I also thought about the panic buttons on the vehicle. BUT, try counting how many times a day you hear those things going off. And if they are halfway (i hesitate to use the word) smart criminals they won't be trying this on a conjested street or busy area.
From now on I'll try to get her to watch her surrounding better and leave a getaway space. I am not trying to be argumentative or say that a person has any right to draw another unwanted into their situation. Causing injuries is the LAST thing that I would want to do no matter how minor.
Finally, I know that there are more than one answers to situations, that is why I posed the question. I would like to know the best answer.
I understand your argument, but that would be what is called road rage. How are you to know that she wasn't having a heart attack, or that her foot slipped or someone didn't hit her? Are you telling me that if someone hit your car from behind the first thing that you would do is without even thinking start ramming back?
"Given the size and strength of the modern SUV, why do you shrug off the injury potential of kinetic energy transfer, even if it occurs in close quarters?
Any why is a degree of injury acceptable to the other driver, as you allude to? Your wife's jeopardy, unfortunate though it may be, does not grant to her the authority to force others into her reduced circumstances"
The modern SUV is bigger than a Highlander which is built on a Camery frame. I would not shrug off anyones injury. And if this event happened I would make every effort to pay for any injuries my family caused.
She has no athority to draw in anyone else you are correct. But as the father of a 2 year old, when I see the options being,
a. Possibly causing a small injury and yes causing minor dammage to anothers vehicle. I was talking about from about 4 or 5 feet and the engine in a Highlander isn't that big.
or
b. Having a carjacker kidnap my son in the backseat.
No choice, I'll pay for what I cause.
"If she wants the attention of others, tell her to hold down the steering wheel button that is marked with a trumpet icon"
Yes that is a good idea. I also thought about the panic buttons on the vehicle. BUT, try counting how many times a day you hear those things going off. And if they are halfway (i hesitate to use the word) smart criminals they won't be trying this on a conjested street or busy area.
From now on I'll try to get her to watch her surrounding better and leave a getaway space. I am not trying to be argumentative or say that a person has any right to draw another unwanted into their situation. Causing injuries is the LAST thing that I would want to do no matter how minor.
Finally, I know that there are more than one answers to situations, that is why I posed the question. I would like to know the best answer.
Dorrin79
Member
Clubsoda - In Texas, it is legal to drive around with a loaded long gun without any type of license
Sorry that it's not that way in your state
Sorry that it's not that way in your state
G21dude
Member
Here's my take...
Of course, pay attention, keep windows up, doors locked, and keep a safe distance from the car in front of you. Expand that to "always have someplace you can maneuver to," and that goes for non carjack situations, too.
Assuming someone has chosen you as their victim, determine if you can give them the car and get the hell out, and if so, at least consider that. I carry two keys to both our cars, regular and "valet" -- the "valet" keys are on a quick release and I *always* drive with those, so given the option, I can snatch the other keys and hop out of the car. I do that for several reasons; one, for valet parking; two, so I can run inside a stop-n-rob and lock my family in the car with it running; three, in case I want it to appear that I have removed the keys from my vehicle; four, so I can abandon the vehicle quickly and not leave housekeys behind.
I CCW but if I'm driving my POS VW the guy might be doing me a favor. If I'm with my family or in my wife's non-POS Jeep, probably a different story.
Remember that a $500 car insurance deductible beats the snot of out a $500 health insurance deductible, if the perp gets even a little lucky.
Especially for women -- the line of "fight/don't fight" is this: if someone tries to take you somewhere, fight, because you are most likely fighting for your life.
Anyway, assuming you're being carjacked while you are stopped and in the vehicle, lean on the horn and don't let up unless you need your hands/elbows. The idea is to attract as much attention to the situation as possible. Along those lines, I have to agree that intentionally bumping another car is a *good* idea. The intent is to make lots of people stare, and hopefully the person you hit will even get out of their car. Witnesses are bad mojo to crimes in general.
If you can get out of the car, do so, because you are at a location that you at least chose to drive through. If you are kidnap/carjacked, WRECK YOUR CAR. Slow down and drive into a phone pole or something. No one wants to steal a wrecked car. Hopefully the perp will get out and run. Refer to advice re: fight/no fight above -- if you're driving and the perp is telling you where to drive, he is taking you somewhere. Bad. Escpecially if you have little ones in the car. I'm not saying drive it off a bridge, just smash something. Kids have to be in car seats anyway, right? You're wearing your seat belt, right? He's not, right? Hmmm...
If you're not in the car yet, consider these obvious suggestions -- ensure that your car has a remote keyless entry system, and that the first "press" only opens the driver's door, the 2nd press can open the rest. Obviously check the backseats/etc before getting in, and lock the doors the second you're in the car (hell, I do that anyway, and I carry). If you can reach them, consider not buckling the kids in until the door is locked. Don't park in stupid places, and if you do, don't walk out there alone.
As has been said, if you're driving and someone "bumps" you, don't stop someplace secluded. If you're not sure where to stop, call 911 and ask them. Better safe than sorry. If you're pulled over by the police and feel suspicious (as in fake cops), turn on your dome light, your hazard lights, slow down (less than the speed limit), and wave your cell phone in your rearview mirror before calling 911 and asking dispatch if you're really being pulled over. Your neighborhood LEO should understand the meaning pretty clearly.
For those of us who carry -- if you witness a carjacking, at least consider that if there is a owner in the car, you just witnessed a kidnapping, and if the owner is female, you just witnessed the beginning of a rape. How should you react to a rape in progress?
I disagree with the theory of avoiding eye contact. Look around, look right at people. Look at their face, clothes, hands, friends, etc. -- look "observant." You don't "look like a victim" when you do that. If someone gets nasty with you for looking at them, you may have pissed them off just by breathing their air, you never know.
Did I miss anything? Anyone disagree?
Of course, pay attention, keep windows up, doors locked, and keep a safe distance from the car in front of you. Expand that to "always have someplace you can maneuver to," and that goes for non carjack situations, too.
Assuming someone has chosen you as their victim, determine if you can give them the car and get the hell out, and if so, at least consider that. I carry two keys to both our cars, regular and "valet" -- the "valet" keys are on a quick release and I *always* drive with those, so given the option, I can snatch the other keys and hop out of the car. I do that for several reasons; one, for valet parking
; two, so I can run inside a stop-n-rob and lock my family in the car with it running; three, in case I want it to appear that I have removed the keys from my vehicle; four, so I can abandon the vehicle quickly and not leave housekeys behind. I CCW but if I'm driving my POS VW the guy might be doing me a favor. If I'm with my family or in my wife's non-POS Jeep, probably a different story.
Remember that a $500 car insurance deductible beats the snot of out a $500 health insurance deductible, if the perp gets even a little lucky.
Especially for women -- the line of "fight/don't fight" is this: if someone tries to take you somewhere, fight, because you are most likely fighting for your life.
Anyway, assuming you're being carjacked while you are stopped and in the vehicle, lean on the horn and don't let up unless you need your hands/elbows. The idea is to attract as much attention to the situation as possible. Along those lines, I have to agree that intentionally bumping another car is a *good* idea. The intent is to make lots of people stare, and hopefully the person you hit will even get out of their car. Witnesses are bad mojo to crimes in general.
If you can get out of the car, do so, because you are at a location that you at least chose to drive through. If you are kidnap/carjacked, WRECK YOUR CAR. Slow down and drive into a phone pole or something. No one wants to steal a wrecked car. Hopefully the perp will get out and run. Refer to advice re: fight/no fight above -- if you're driving and the perp is telling you where to drive, he is taking you somewhere. Bad. Escpecially if you have little ones in the car. I'm not saying drive it off a bridge, just smash something. Kids have to be in car seats anyway, right? You're wearing your seat belt, right? He's not, right? Hmmm...
If you're not in the car yet, consider these obvious suggestions -- ensure that your car has a remote keyless entry system, and that the first "press" only opens the driver's door, the 2nd press can open the rest. Obviously check the backseats/etc before getting in, and lock the doors the second you're in the car (hell, I do that anyway, and I carry). If you can reach them, consider not buckling the kids in until the door is locked. Don't park in stupid places, and if you do, don't walk out there alone.
As has been said, if you're driving and someone "bumps" you, don't stop someplace secluded. If you're not sure where to stop, call 911 and ask them. Better safe than sorry. If you're pulled over by the police and feel suspicious (as in fake cops), turn on your dome light, your hazard lights, slow down (less than the speed limit), and wave your cell phone in your rearview mirror before calling 911 and asking dispatch if you're really being pulled over. Your neighborhood LEO should understand the meaning pretty clearly.
For those of us who carry -- if you witness a carjacking, at least consider that if there is a owner in the car, you just witnessed a kidnapping, and if the owner is female, you just witnessed the beginning of a rape. How should you react to a rape in progress?
I disagree with the theory of avoiding eye contact. Look around, look right at people. Look at their face, clothes, hands, friends, etc. -- look "observant." You don't "look like a victim" when you do that. If someone gets nasty with you for looking at them, you may have pissed them off just by breathing their air, you never know.
Did I miss anything? Anyone disagree?
fjolnirsson
Member
Eskimo Jim,
Why no eye contact?
I have found that if you make eye contact, most BG's don't want any. If you've made eye contact, you are a witness, and have clearly seen their face. Most will decide at that point to pick on somebody else.
Why no eye contact?
I have found that if you make eye contact, most BG's don't want any. If you've made eye contact, you are a witness, and have clearly seen their face. Most will decide at that point to pick on somebody else.
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Josey
member
NO! AIRBAGS!! What good will it do to harm yourself? Facial injuries to include fractures, burns and contusions. I would not "gas it" and hit the vehicle in front. Our DDI told us to always stop where we could see the wheels/tires of the vehicle in front of us. Have a way out. OC is useless outdoors. If you spray without checking wind direction, OUCH! A firearm is the only choice. Your wife needs to get real and protect her child. It is not a question of self defense, it is about protecting the defenseless.
JamisJockey
member
Me too, I'd love to hear this one.
I know that not making eye contact is a survellience/counter survellience technique. However, why wouldn't you want the BG to know he's been made?
I've always thought that the average garden variety run of the mill BG is looking for a soft target. Wouldn't you? If your target sees you, makes eye contact, you've lost the element of surprise.
And as for ramming the car in front of you...why would you be stopped that close to them in the first place? Not to mention, why bring an innocent bystander into your confrontation, possibly injuring them????
G21dude
Member
Hitting other vehicles/objects
Bear in mind that I'm not advocating "gassing it" and slamming another car -- I'm talking about smacking their bumper hard enough to get their attention (5 MPH or so would do) -- YES, you'll probably damage one or both vehicles, but that beats the hell out of being the star witness at your own funeral. And that's only if they get your door open in the first place. If they can't, but they're trying, that's when you take advantage of the fact that there's space in front of you and leave, not hit someone.
What I said about wrecking the car was after you have been kidnap/carjacked. If you are being taken someplace against your will, you're better off smashing up your car than being raped, killed, and stashed in a dumpster.
The only real point of argument on that last bit is whether you buy my "theory" about "if you're being taken someplace it's to be raped/tortured/killed" and before you disagree with that, read up
Bear in mind that I'm not advocating "gassing it" and slamming another car -- I'm talking about smacking their bumper hard enough to get their attention (5 MPH or so would do) -- YES, you'll probably damage one or both vehicles, but that beats the hell out of being the star witness at your own funeral. And that's only if they get your door open in the first place. If they can't, but they're trying, that's when you take advantage of the fact that there's space in front of you and leave, not hit someone.
What I said about wrecking the car was after you have been kidnap/carjacked. If you are being taken someplace against your will, you're better off smashing up your car than being raped, killed, and stashed in a dumpster.
The only real point of argument on that last bit is whether you buy my "theory" about "if you're being taken someplace it's to be raped/tortured/killed" and before you disagree with that, read up
Don't fence me in
[Sidebar: I don't subscribe to the media construct "road rage". It's just as easy, if not more accurate, to say "bad manners" when describing some of the more egregious actions performed by our fellow drivers.]
And here, you go from
Aside from the obvious contradiction, I'm concerned about the imprimatur that you are putting on this behavior; i.e., the idea that intentionally crashing into an innocent driver's vehicle is acceptable under the circumstance you describe. I disagree. Your rights stop several inches away from my tailgate, regardless of the circumstances.
If I choose to assist someone that I perceive to be in obvious jeopardy, that is my choice - and mine alone - to make.
I know you are looking for the best answer, Ed, and I respect that. I'd suggest that the intentional creation of an insurance claim should not be part of the analysis here.
Please train your wife well. Please pay attention to your surroundings. Please stay away from my rear bumper.
TM
Don't make assumptions. I said "incentive", not "promised to perform". I'd be tempted to return fire, as it were. Hopefully my better judgement would prevail in such a situation.
[Sidebar: I don't subscribe to the media construct "road rage". It's just as easy, if not more accurate, to say "bad manners" when describing some of the more egregious actions performed by our fellow drivers.]
And here, you go from
to
Aside from the obvious contradiction, I'm concerned about the imprimatur that you are putting on this behavior; i.e., the idea that intentionally crashing into an innocent driver's vehicle is acceptable under the circumstance you describe. I disagree. Your rights stop several inches away from my tailgate, regardless of the circumstances.
If I choose to assist someone that I perceive to be in obvious jeopardy, that is my choice - and mine alone - to make.
Death by incrementalism. One day, some woman in a Ford Excursion may want to bump the Subaru in front of them, just like that woman in the recent newspaper article did....
I know you are looking for the best answer, Ed, and I respect that. I'd suggest that the intentional creation of an insurance claim should not be part of the analysis here.
Please train your wife well. Please pay attention to your surroundings. Please stay away from my rear bumper.
TM
TM,
I would hope that in any situation that anyone was in there would be a way out. I have told my wife what to do and can only hope that she will do it(leave an escape route) I don't think that the two quotes contradict each other. I HAVE NO RIGHT to involve anyone else, BUT I WILL if I am forced to. My first responsability os to my family and especially to a 2 year old who is to young to do basicly anything for himself. I am not talking about slamming into a car from even 10 feet. If you had that much room you could have an escape. I also see that hitting anyones car is not always the best option. It is a LAST RESORT, If there are no more options. Every situation is different. I am not talking about a Excursion I am talking about a Highlander. I am asking for MY situation. And I know that some cars are bigger and some are smaller, that would play in too. Or if the carjacker had a gun. Or if there were more than one. Let me ask this. If you are not able to get out to the side due to the fact that you are 4 feet behind the lead car, You have NO firearm, A child is strapped in the back seat, Someone is at your window with a gun, You cant back up. What do you do? I know ideally we wouldn't be in this situation but pretend that you are. I'm not arguing rights, I'm talking survival.
I would hope that in any situation that anyone was in there would be a way out. I have told my wife what to do and can only hope that she will do it(leave an escape route) I don't think that the two quotes contradict each other. I HAVE NO RIGHT to involve anyone else, BUT I WILL if I am forced to. My first responsability os to my family and especially to a 2 year old who is to young to do basicly anything for himself. I am not talking about slamming into a car from even 10 feet. If you had that much room you could have an escape. I also see that hitting anyones car is not always the best option. It is a LAST RESORT, If there are no more options. Every situation is different. I am not talking about a Excursion I am talking about a Highlander. I am asking for MY situation. And I know that some cars are bigger and some are smaller, that would play in too. Or if the carjacker had a gun. Or if there were more than one. Let me ask this. If you are not able to get out to the side due to the fact that you are 4 feet behind the lead car, You have NO firearm, A child is strapped in the back seat, Someone is at your window with a gun, You cant back up. What do you do? I know ideally we wouldn't be in this situation but pretend that you are. I'm not arguing rights, I'm talking survival.
Ed -
I recognize the idea behind the "last resort" act of desparation that you've described here. I sincerely hope that your family will never find itself in the deleterious circumstance that you mentioned in this thread's opening post.
Where we continue to part ways is in the very act that you offer for consideration here. I believe that the involuntary insertion of another person into your own situation is morally unacceptable.
Please remember that your logic is portable. If someone chooses to pull me into their own trouble, I retain the right of refusal. I will act in my own best interests. This may include putting the truck in Reverse and taking the other driver to school. Or, I may drive away and report the incident to the appropriate authorities. If I sense that the other driver is in fact in duress, I may even choose to assist them.
Freewill.
Freewill.
Freewill.
In your original situation, as you've described it, I cannot recommend risking damage to another person or vehicle. I place such reasoning in the same realm as the old biker's canard, "I (intentionally) crashed my bike in order to avoid a wreck."
As you've mentioned, you are "talking survival". I am choosing to argue a particular right - the right to be left alone. I will not allow others to discard this condition. This is not stated to convince you that I will not render aid. Rather, I say it to support and preserve my right to choose my fate.
TM
Edit - In response to your asking what I would do, given the scenario mentioned at the end of your most recent post? Probably present a firearm, as I don't go unarmed these days.
I recognize the idea behind the "last resort" act of desparation that you've described here. I sincerely hope that your family will never find itself in the deleterious circumstance that you mentioned in this thread's opening post.
Where we continue to part ways is in the very act that you offer for consideration here. I believe that the involuntary insertion of another person into your own situation is morally unacceptable.
Please remember that your logic is portable. If someone chooses to pull me into their own trouble, I retain the right of refusal. I will act in my own best interests. This may include putting the truck in Reverse and taking the other driver to school. Or, I may drive away and report the incident to the appropriate authorities. If I sense that the other driver is in fact in duress, I may even choose to assist them.
Freewill.
Freewill.
Freewill.
In your original situation, as you've described it, I cannot recommend risking damage to another person or vehicle. I place such reasoning in the same realm as the old biker's canard, "I (intentionally) crashed my bike in order to avoid a wreck."
As you've mentioned, you are "talking survival". I am choosing to argue a particular right - the right to be left alone. I will not allow others to discard this condition. This is not stated to convince you that I will not render aid. Rather, I say it to support and preserve my right to choose my fate.
TM
Edit - In response to your asking what I would do, given the scenario mentioned at the end of your most recent post? Probably present a firearm, as I don't go unarmed these days.
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