Caracal Trigger Parameters--Pre & Post Recall

[JohnKSa]

This thread is to compile information on the recall affected Caracal F & C pistols--specifically on how the new parts affect the trigger.

http://firearmsafetyrules.com/press/caracal-pistol-recall/
http://firearmsafetyrules.com/press/Caracal-Safety-Warning-and-Recall-Update/

I contacted Caracal, and as expected, they would not agree to ship me the parts to do the parts change myself. I was hoping that I could get the two parts sets side-by-side for comparison. So, the next best thing is to measure the parameters of the current trigger and compare them to the post-recall trigger.

I measured the following parameters for my F and the figures are below. Obviously it will be awhile before the recall takes place, but I had some time today and decided to do the measurements.

Trigger Pull Weight (lubricated normally)
5lbs 4.38oz

Total Trigger Travel (measured at the trigger tip ignoring the trigger safety)
8 to 9 mm (.31 to .35 inches)

Trigger Travel to Break Point (measured at the trigger tip ignoring the trigger safety)
6 to 7 mm (.24 to .28 inches)

Trigger Reset Travel (measured at the trigger tip ignoring the trigger safety. Dryfire the pistol and then hold the trigger while racking the slide. Allow the trigger to move forward until the "click" of reset is felt and measure the distance that the trigger had traveled forward at the point that the click/reset occured--not the position of the trigger AFTER the click/reset.)
7 to 8 mm (.28 to .31 inches)

Trigger Reach Unfired Position (measured with the trigger safety compressed by looping a string around the trigger and upper backstrap and measuring the length of the loop. Allow the string to "settle" where it wants to on the curve of the trigger and the curve of the upper backstrap.)
17.3 cm (6.8 inches)

I will do the same measurements again after the pistol is returned to me after the recall and post the results here.

If you have a Caracal F and/or C that you plan to return for the recall, you might consider archiving similar information on your pistol in this thread for comparison for yourself and others upon the return of the modified pistols.

 

[creeper1956]

Interesting John. So the idea here is to see if the functional parameters will have a significant change after the recall is performed?

Have you considered removing the fire control and drop safe parts, taking relevant measurements on the individual components as well as photos... and then repeating that with the new recall parts? This would, barring an actual side by side comparison, at least give you an idea of what, specifically, is different.

I guess I'm more curious about what/how was modified to produce an unsafe to a completely "drop safe" condition... in Caracal's estimation.

Cheers,
C

 

[JohnKSa]

I may try something like that, but I'm expecting the visual changes to be fairly minor given that this recall only affects certain ranges of pistols. It's entirely possible that it won't change anything visible at all--it could be something like a bad batch of firing pins that might allow the lug that's engaged by the firing pin safety to shear off under certain conditions. Of course, in that case, there probably won't be any difference in the parameters I measured.

Or, it might be that the firing pin safety spring is too weak in the affected pistols. That would be undetectable to all but the most detailed analysis, but it would likely cause a change in the trigger pull weight which would show up in a pre/post recall comparison of trigger pull weight.

Simple answer: This was easier to do and I suspect that the data is probably more of interest to more Caracal owners than attempts to compare the internal parts themselves. If nothing else, even for those who aren't interested in the pre/post comparison, the measured parameters provide information that's not readily available elsewhere.

 

[creeper1956]

Simple answer: This was easier to do and I suspect that the data is probably more of interest to more Caracal owners than attempts to compare the internal parts themselves. If nothing else, even for those who aren't interested in the pre/post comparison, the measured parameters provide information that's not readily available elsewhere.

Point taken. My general curiosity tends to get the better of me, and I go a bit overboard in my investigations. Occasionally it pans out... but more often than not, it's just added effort with no added benefit.

C

 

[LiveLife]

JohnKSa, very good thread.

Keep us posted.

 

[Urban_Redneck]

Interesting!

 

[HKGuns]

This just cements my opinion that these things are the UAE garbage I suspected they were all along, but I resisted posting in those threads because I didn't want to be a downer. Just like shotguns from Turkey, pistols from the UAE isn't exactly buying from an area with a history of great pistol production.

Please don't be offended John, I just don't understand what they bring to the table, other than something new, that a hundred other brands don't already.

 

[hardluk1]

hkguns for someone that doesn't like to post in these treads ,you did . Its not like hk has not had there own recalls. They all do. No some do it above board and some do it quietly as "updates".

 

[Shuler13]

Hk. They bring enough for me to buy one over every other gun the marketplace. And I still like it.

 

[Girodin]

This just cements my opinion that these things are the UAE garbage I suspected they were all along, but I resisted posting in those threads because I didn't want to be a downer.

Clearly they are now reduced to at best being on par with Ruger, Sig, Walther, S&W, Glock, etc. All of them have had recalls on pistols. Unfortunately it happens sometimes. I don't have a Caracal and thus no real do in the fight. I just find your conclusion based on this to be a little silly.

 

[Urban_Redneck]

Clearly they are now reduced to at best being on par with Ruger, Sig, Walther, S&W, Glock, etc. All of them have had recalls on pistols. Unfortunately it happens sometimes. I don't have a Caracal and thus no real do in the fight. I just find your conclusion based on this to be a little silly.

Not to mention that HK still hates him

 

[1KPerDay]

Your links in the first post don't work, BTW.

 

[candr44]

I just talked to Caracal today and asked them if the new trigger would change the trigger pull and they told me no it wouldn't. We will see after they make the change.

pistols from the UAE isn't exactly buying from an area with a history of great pistol production.

The Caracal was designed by Wilhelm Bubbits an Austrian with a good track record of designing guns. They are also made in Germany and have passed the German military and police tests. Are you also saying Germany and Austria have low standards and a poor history of making great guns?

Sorry, but your statement smacks of gun snobbery. Please keep refraining from posting in these forums until you buy a Caracal and test it, then you can form an opinion based on experience.

 

[JohnKSa]

Your links in the first post don't work, BTW.

You are correct. Caracal changed their website.

These links should work.

http://firearmsafetyrules.com/press/caracal-pistol-recall/
http://firearmsafetyrules.com/press/Caracal-Safety-Warning-and-Recall-Update/

This just cements my opinion that these things are the UAE garbage I suspected they were all along, but I resisted posting in those threads because I didn't want to be a downer. Just like shotguns from Turkey, pistols from the UAE isn't exactly buying from an area with a history of great pistol production.

As far as I know, the UAE doesn't have ANY history of firearms production at all. That means there's no reason to believe or suspect that guns produced in the UAE are garbage. There's no prior evidence one way or the other on which to form an opinion or even a suspicion about the quality of firearms made in the UAE.

It's not at all like "shotguns from Turkey" for the simple reason that Turkey has been producing guns, some of questionable quality, for many years. It's one thing to form an opinion based on past history. It's quite another to simply make an assumption without any evidence whatsoever to support it.

Is this recall evidence that Caracals are garbage? Well, let's take a look at the facts to see if they bear out such a conclusion.

Only some pistols are affected, not all of them. So we're not talking about a design problem or all of them would be affected. This sounds roughly similar to the situation that Ruger experienced when some of their revolver barrels were improperly assembled resulting in early failures--or perhaps what Glock went through a while back when some of the slide rails were bent with too sharp a bend radius during the manufacturing process leading to a recall of affected pistols.

So the design seems to be sound, and the bulk of production is not affected. It comes down to whether or not we believe that it's unacceptable for a manufacturer to make mistakes. If we adopt such a position, we've set a bar so high that no one can hope to clear it.

 

[hardluk1]

UAE may not have a back ground in firearm design but MERKEL does and UAE does own merkel. The designer has been involved with glock, walther and styer before the caracal line.

If anyone has never heard of merkel. Look them up. You can tell quickly they know very little about firearms. hehe

 

[Urban_Redneck]

Modern pistols, like Glock and Caracal are designed to be assembled with minimal/no hand work- No files on the shop floor! The Merkel side of the plant looks much different

What the "problem" is, I don't know, nor, do I expect the company will oficially disclose anything about what the part(s) is or the number of pistols actually affected. I wouldn't be surprised if they will mark either the slide or frame (where the offending mechanism or part resides) to denote that the pistol has been checked and is in spec.

Those of us that plan on keeping our Caracal pistols will just have to endure the buffoonery of the know-it-alls and fanbois until the pistols are serviced.

In the meantime perhaps one of the HSLD training guys will develop some control parts or sights that magically make the gun GTG (!) and folks will ease up on their prejudices.

YMMV

 

[LiveLife]

endure the buffoonery of the know-it-alls and fanbois until the pistols are serviced ... and folks will ease up on their prejudices.

I recall similar comments and treatments when Glock was first introduced in the US ... Even I was one of those that went, "What? Make a gun out of plastic? Are you out of your mind?" after handling a G17 in the early 1980's for the first time and saw that I could push on the grip and flex it. I shook my head in disbelief.

Years later, that all changed when I ran a USPSA practice stage using a friend's new Gen2 G17 along with my Sig P226. Although I was well practiced with the P226, I got faster stage times with the unfamiliar G17. I couldn't believe it and thought it was a fluke and repeatedly ran the stage only to duplicate the results.

I welcome competition and innovation as it will force the industry to continuously improve the products.

 

[fatcat4620]

This just cements my opinion that these things are the UAE garbage I suspected they were all along, but I resisted posting in those threads because I didn't want to be a downer. Just like shotguns from Turkey, pistols from the UAE isn't exactly buying from an area with a history of great pistol production.

Please don't be offended John, I just don't understand what they bring to the table, other than something new, that a hundred other brands don't already.

Haters gunna hate.

 

[Kendahl]

Trigger feel is mostly subjective yet more important for function than any of the measurements you have been able to make. With the right instrumentation, it is possible to measure resistance as a function of position and compare the data before and after the recall. Smooth movement is more important than the exact pull weight or travel.