Carbine classes: What is everyone shooting?

[Jeff White]

MAKOwner said,

I never said airsoft took the place of any other training, I just think it can be a plus for a regular keyboard commando like most of us around here. Where else short of the military am I going to get such training as you've described that is both affordable and convenient?

I don't want this to sound elitist or anything, but I don't see it as a plus unless it's properly planned and executed. I'm not going to say you can't learn anything from it, but who's to say you'll learn the right things from a fun force on force game? As to where you can get that kind of training, our own Denny Hansen provided a very good force on force exercise when I took Louis Awerbuck's Stage I Shotgun at Denny's place last June. We even used airsoft weapons. So it's out there.

A carbine class involves shooting paper targets, no incoming rounds, no need for cover/concealment, clearly that's not perfect either.

As I said in my earlier post, the marksmanship and weapons handling is just a part of it. It's a very important part of it. But it's not the entire equation. You can't learn everything you need to know in a carbine course, but you will learn more then you will playing airsoft or paintball.

Directly, you said airsoft cannot help you to be proficient with your real weapon implying they were somehow completely unlike the real thing. Seeing as they have realistically functioning/placed controls and sights, mags fit/function like the real things, etc, I disagree... If nothing else you get some practice reloading on the move/"under fire" (of scary 6mm pellets, lol) and get some target practice on moving targets that react to your movements with a realistically looking/feeling gun...

I think airsoft has a great future in tactical simulations. I have used SCOPES (an old Army system that used 4x scopes on a plastic carry handle mount on the M16 and helmet covers with numbers on them, you called hits out to the umpire), MILES, FATS, Simunitions, paintball and airsoft. They all have their strong and weak points. You are correct when you say that many airsoft guns use the same manual of arms that their real counterparts do. The problem I see with them, especially with carbines and rifles is the range limitation. Train too much with them and your mind will start thinking that you can only engage at very close range. This was a problem that we discovered we had when we introduced MILES into the system. Soldiers had no idea that they could engage the enemy out to the maximum effective range of their weapons. Why, because in all the other training they did before MILES they couldn't really register a kill at range because of the umpires and the other limitations of training with just blanks. I can see this happening with airsoft. That's not to say that airsoft is bad because of that, I'm just saying that you have to take that into account when you plan your training.

Yes, it's not a real gun, but there is just about no way I can get much experience shooting at other people with any of my real weapons and not end up dead or in jail, lol. I am very interested in taking some carbine classes, been wanting to for a long time and will at some point...

Some of the simulators that the instructors are using are very realistic. You haven't seen anything till you've tried LOuis Awerbuck's moving target.

The carbine course is but one part of your training. A good one will touch on the other areas. We've come a long way since Ready on the right, ready on the left, the firing line is ready.

Jeff

 

[curt]

at a pat rogers class i took last year everyone had ARs except for one Armalite .308 (AR10?) and a romak AK.

The .308 had continous malfunctions, the opinion was the tight match type chamber. That shooter , an experienced shooter BTW, ended the course with an AR.

The AK shooter i did not expect much from- cheap gun, cheap gear. But that guy could shoot that AK! At the ranges we were shooting, mostly under 50 yds combat type accuracy was about the same as the ARs. What hindered him was the ergonomics of the gun. He did have to do a clearance or two.

I thought about bringing one of my FALs just to see how it shot but you really don't want to change horses halfway through the race. Plus like someone else said i was concerned that 400 rds of .308 a day from a variety of positions and while moving etc might be distracting.

My primary reason to take a course is to work myself out not to try new guns. My secondary reason is to try out gear and see what works, but i've never had to go to a backup guns or had any big problems cause i think my setup out before hand.

 

[444]

One thing to keep in mind about learning any skill, you need to learn to walk before you can run.
Spending time on the square range firing at paper targets is an important part of the process: this is the walking part. You need to learn how to run your weapon. The best way to do this is with drills that focus on these skills. There are almost countless skills to learn that require almost countelss repititions to become an ingrained unconscious response. If you went into a basic carbine class and the first thing in the morning of day one you began simmunitions training, you would not learn these skills.
This is the reason they offer more than one class. For example at Gunsite they have Basic Carbine, Advanced Carbine, and Carbine Advanced Tactical Problems. In the Basic Carbine class you focus on the BASICS, thus it's name. This consists of probably 80% of your time on the square range. They do get into a few simulator runs that teach you some basic tactics. In Advanced Carbine a lot more of the focus is on learning to fight with your carbine. You do more simulators and are introduced to Simmunitions. I have never taken Advanced Tactical Problems but I assume very little time is spent on the square range. This is the running part of the process.
There is no course that will take you from novice to a spec-ops warrior in five days. That is simply the reality of the situation.

 

[j.wise]

Somebody asked about simunitions. I've used simunitions in Police training, but only with pistols. The training was the "active-shooter" course, and it was conducted in one of my city's High Schools. It was very realistic, not anything like paintball (except the feeling of being hit.)

My opinion regarding simunitions, paintball, airsoft, etc., is simple. The TOOLS used matter little, it is the FORMAT of the training that makes it useful. I doubt the format of a paintball game is very educational, but it's not the paintball gun's fault.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Getting back to the original question, ARs are the most common long guns found in most of the classes. You can use almost anything and in any caliber you choose to in basic classes, but as your skills and the intensity of classes increase you will be more and more limited, if not restricted to, .223.

The reason is that one will perform more work in simulators and up close at the higher levels--and .308 caliber rounds will tear up the school's steel and is more dangerous to the shooter due to ricochets at close range. Next month I'll be taking Gunsite's ATP course. Ammo is restricted to ball only, and also requires about 500+ rounds of approved frangible ammo for the indoor and outdoor simulators. There will also be a LOT of Sims/force-on-force.

Sims, Airsoft and paintball can be very useful training tools or it can be a game. Which camp you decide to pitch your tent in is a personal choice.

Denny

 

[Med 10]

IMHO the only disadvantage of the AK is slightly slower mag changes. Well worth it for the increase in reliability and durability.

Not to get ugly or start a flame war but are Russian tac teams and special ops people less effective than their western counterparts simply because they use a different weapon?

I think you can be good at a number of different weapon systems if you devote enough time to practice and training.

 

[SodaPop]

I don't think anyone should downplay paintball.

Not all paintball games are the same either. Same goes with combat simulation video games.

What Denny said......

 

[444]

"Not to get ugly or start a flame war but are Russian tac teams and special ops people less effective than their western counterparts simply because they use a different weapon?"

As the saying goes: " You are the weapon, the gun is only a tool"



Something else to at least consider. I am not going to try to start a debate about the relative merits of one weapons platform over another. But in my opinion many of these internet discussions get ridiculous. I am a civilian. I have never had a problem with any gun I owned that wasn't broken in the conditions in which I use them. I am not going to be doing an amphibious
landing, crawling through the sand and then engaging an enemy battalion. If my weapons can fire 1000 rounds in a day's time flawlessly, why should I worry if it is possible to get more reliability ? I think that pretty much any of the commonly available weapons would be more than adequate for most of our needs including these classes. With that in mind the decision of what to use comes down to other factors such as ease of operation, accuracy, the availability of aftermarket accessories that enhance operation etc.

 

[ShaiVong]

Logistics

How do you manage to get 2000 rounds of ammo and a weapon out there anyhow? Do you trust your rifles to checked luggage (assuming you can still do that kind of thing)?

I would be worried about arriving there berift of weapon or ammo.

 

[natedog]

You mail your equipment there, usually.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

.

I've taken a Basic Carbine course at Gunsite this past January. Took a SAR-2 with AK-74 comp and a PK-01. I've never had a jam with this gun in thousands of rounds... and I didnt there either. Accuracy was actually on par with all of the AR-15's out there, including the NM rifles right out to the end of the range. There was also a Chinese AK out there, looked like a legend, another Bulgarian AK-74 and an HK91.

Night shooting was very interesting. They put up flares behind steel poppers at 100 meters and intervals up to there and we had to shoot them from various positions as the lights died. Sometimes the bullets striking metal created these coooool showers of sparks. A great experience and I learned a lot. If you get the opportunity to go, try it.

I've also taken a pistol course at Front Sight. Another great school.

 

[444]

At Gunsite most people seem to carry their weapon as luggage and buy the ammo from the school.
At Frontsight I know some of the people call the local Wal-Mart and have them set aside their ammo for them. Of course this is Nevada and Wal-Mart is open 24/7 so they can pick it up whenever they get into town.
Of course I drove to both schools so it wasn't an issue.

 

[j.wise]

Gun Wielding Maniac- Welcome to THR

Did you use the standard sights on your SAR-2, or some other sighting system? To me, the biggest drawback of my VEPR is the sights, not the mag changing.

 

[UnknownSailor]

I'm taking 223 at Gunsite this September, and will be bringing my Olympic Arms AR clone, with the stock upper and my new Bushmaster Dissapator upper. I am driving down, and will be bringing my gear with me.

While I was at Thunder Ranch in October of 2000, there was a Urban Rifle course in session the same time as our Defensive Handgun. I remember everyone having an AR-15 clone of some kind. I even picked up one of them on the road leading to school, after he had a truck breakdown on the way in. I figured a guy walking on the side of the road with a large backpack and two rifle cases in hand had to be headed the same place as I was.

 

[JShirley]

I am not going to be doing an amphibious landing, crawling through the sand and then engaging an enemy battalion.

444,

While I understand what you're saying, I do believe I will be munching dirt if I have rounds sailing in on me. As such, it does makes sense to me to have a weapon that will not malfunction with a little sand in it.

Yes, I currently have much more trigger time on the M16 family than other platforms, but after I have time to reach a similar proficiency level with my FAL's, that M4 will be, at best, second choice.

John

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

.

j.wise, I used a PK-01V red dot sight on the Sar-2. It worked great, no problems at all. The AK's have a very short sight radius and that seems to cause people a lot of problems. Use an alternate sighting system that puts all shooting on a singular sighting plane and that problem goes away.

BTW, thanks for the welcome.

 

[Kestrel]

I've wondered about using an FAL for one of these classes, myself. If I ever had to use a gun in a desperate situation, the FAL (or M1A Bush model is probably whay I would choose, anyway.)

The FAL I thought about is a DSA STG-58 Carbine or a DSA SA-58 Lightweight Tactical Carbine.

The ARs would certainly be easier to carry and shoot all week, but it's probably not what I would grab, if I had to in an emergency.

Steve

 

[JShirley]

Yeah.

AR's easy to shoot, but like the man said,

"Grow stronger!"

After Basic, nothing seems to be as heavy anymore, anyway! (Hefted one of the PSS'es while on hometown recruiting, and said, "Hey! This isn't so bad!" Even the HK-91 didn't seem quite so horrible...even if still balanced poorly!)

John

 

[444]

I become extremly fatgued during these long gun classes. The fact that I am middle aged (42) might be THE big factor. I can tell you that for me, it would make the course a lot more fun if I wasn't in pain, and also allow me to focus more on the information presented. I work out with weights on a regular basis, but my back and arms still kill me. I thought about taking a four day class with my M1 but don't know if I have the guts. Since my first class, I take NSAIDs from beginning to end.

John, you are making a huge leap in your post (this is exactly what I am talking about). We go from being reliable in the worst possible combat conditions to being able to funciton with "a little sand". The two are not in any way comparable. I know my weapons will funciton with a "little sand". That isn't a question.
FWIW, I am pretty familiar with how these weapons function with a "little sand". I was stationed at Ft. Bliss. I have also lived in the desert since the early 80s. Every carbine class I have taken has either been in Arizona or Nevada.