Carolinas Alert

[LAR-15]

Grass Roots North Carolina, P.O. Box 10684, Raleigh, NC 27605 919-664-8565, www.grnc.org, GRNC Alert Hotline: (919) 562-4137

GRNC Alert 5-14-05:
HB 1311 - Call & Email Your House Reps By MONDAY!

HOUSE HOPES YOU WILL TAKE THE WEEKEND OFF

[Analysis] After GUTTING HB 1311, "Domestic Violence Victims Empowerment Act," the House has scheduled it for a vote this Monday, May 16. This is no coincidence that the vote is scheduled for a Monday. They are hoping that you will be too busy doing other things on the weekend to notice.

As noted before, the NC House Judiciary III Committee Tuesday destroyed the integrity of HB 1311, after extensive lobbying by the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association. The sheriffs' keep referring to the power of the office of the sheriff. Perhaps they are too busy focusing on this power to think of what is best for victims of domestic violence. Which is more important, the power of your sheriff, or the lives of innocent women?

ACT NOW TO RESTORE CRUCIAL MEASURES TO THE BILL!

DO YOU 'NEED' A PERMIT?

HB 1311, as drafted by GRNC, would make it mandatory for sheriffs in North Carolina to issue expedited concealed handgun permits to domestic violence victims who are being protected by restraining orders. This innovative bill contrasts sharply with previous "domestic violence"
legislation that amounted to little more than gun registration and confiscation. The much-heralded 2003 "Homicide Prevention Act," for example, actually shepherded a 26% INCREASE in domestic homicide, a 40% increase in murder/suicide, and a 15% increase in gun use in domestic homicide.

The NC Sheriff's Association, however, have forced language saying that a "sheriff *may* issue" instead of "shall issue," meaning a sheriff would be under no obligation to issue permits. Their lobbyist, EDDIE CALDWELL, not only succeed in stripping "shall issue" language, but also another crucial measure--requiring judges to inform victims of their rights to permits--was removed by committee chairman RONNIE SUTTON (D-Robeson, GRNC *). A gutted shell of its former self, HB 1311 now changes virtually nothing from current law. Although sheriffs can issue expedited permits even now, they rarely do.

BATTLE IS NOT LOST YET

However gutless, HB 1311 passed out of committee and now heads to the House floor. Consequently, time remains to amend it by returning the two most crucial critical provisions: "Shall issue" language under which sheriffs must issue permits to qualified applicants, and language requiring judges to inform victims or their rights to permits.

IMPORTANCE OF SHALL ISSUE AND JUDGE NOTIFICATION

It is likely that sheriffs of more rural counties, if not for the issue of liability they are shackled by under current MAY ISSUE law, would probably hasten to allow women this self-protection; BUT THEY DON'T now and it is largely because of these fears. Furthermore does anyone live under the delusion that there are sheriffs elected in more liberal counties that would EVER feel that a woman MAY 'need' to protect herself with a gun? How many judges in today's environment are likely to inform a domestic violence victim of this right if not forced to under the law? These are important questions.

IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED

-> * CALL & EMAIL YOUR NC HOUSE REP by Monday. It is more important to
CALL, since they are just coming back from the weekend, they may not have the chance to check email before going into session. Leave them voice mails letting them know to pass HB 1311 in its ORIGINAL form before it was gutted at the NC Sheriffs' Associations request. Find your NC House rep by going to: www.grnc.org/contact_reps.htm

-> * Also email AND CALL these members:
Speaker: Speaker James B. Black [email protected] 919-733-3451
Speaker Pro Tempore: Rep. Richard T. Morgan [email protected]
919-715-3010
Special Assistant to the Speaker: Rep. W. Pete Cunningham [email protected] 919-733-5778

Minority Leader: Rep. Joe L. Kiser [email protected]
919-733-5782
Majority Whip: Rep. Marian N. McLawhorn [email protected]
919-733-5757
Minority Whip: Rep. Mitch Gillespie [email protected]
919-733-5862


-> * USE AUTOMATED E-MAIL TO CONTACT ALL HOUSE MEMBERS
grnc.rightswatch.us/alerts/email5_13_05.htm

Or by using this email address: [email protected] Your email will automatically go to ALL members of the NC House.

DELIVER THIS MESSAGE

Subject: HB 1311 Is NOT About Sheriffs' Power

Dear Representative:

HB 1311, "Domestic Violence Victims' Empowerment Act," must pass as it was ORIGINALLY drafted. The current language forced upon this bill by the NC Sheriffs' Association is totally unacceptable.

If the current language mandated by the sheriffs' (which accomplishes no more than current law) worked, we would already be seeing more Joy Burgesses (who successfully defended herself and child using and
handgun) and fewer murder victims like Shennel McKendall.

More likely there would be less violence at all due to the fact that bullies are less likely to target armed victims. Pass HB 1311 as a SHALL ISSUE law and return the language REQUIRING judges to inform these victims of their rights.

Remember, the NC Sheriffs' Association does NOT elect the General Assembly; the PEOPLE do. Rest assured that I will closely monitor activity on this bill.

Respectfully yours,

A Concerned North Carolina Voter

 

[RoyG]

Emails sent...

 

[RealGun]

Surely it must have come up in debate that if the applicant can demonstrate that much danger that the court restrained spouse should be locked up. Otherwise, I am not sure the applicant is entitled to any more concern for personal protection or faster processing than any other applicant. I think any expedited processing participates in setting up the scenario for a shooting. It even condones it by licensing someone of special privilege.

Meanwhile the applicant can have a gun at home or open carry. It seems the issue is concealment.

 

[Waitone]

Existing law allows expedited approval provided accurate and compelling information is provided. Problem is it is not generally known to the great unwashed that such ability exists.

In a situation which which I am familar the female involved had already take the required CCH course but failed to apply. When the need for a CCH permit became evident she applied via normal procedures and provided supplemental information to the sheriff and within one day it was approved and available vs the usual 60 or 90 days (IDRW).

In this situation the issue was round the clock protection. Open carry was out of the question.

 

[RoyG]

Open carry is discouraged in NC. It's call brandishing here.

 

[RealGun]

Open carry is discouraged in NC. It's call brandishing here. - RoyG

Phooey! "Discouraged" maybe, but it's not illegal, last I heard or can confirm. Why roll over on any such interpretation? Brandishing is unholstered or uncased, waving a gun around or pointing it in a dangerous or threatening manner. Subjective maybe, but let's not change the language. Can you cite any official interpretations?

So "bearing arms", especially re handguns, is valid in NC only if licensed and concealed? Pardon me for being skeptical about the validity of your statement. I checked gun law summaries for NC on both packing.org and NRA-ILA and found no reference to "open carry" or an implied prohibition.

I am aware of anecdotes where even non-residents can open carry. My SC instructor wore a western rig on the streets of Charlotte rather than risk leaving it in the car or being unarmed. No problem. In what way has someone figured out how to infringe upon his right to do so?

By contrast, SC law explicitly addresses open carry, declaring it permitted on private property and by an owner of a business or his employees which have the owner's explicit permission. For better or worse, NC law is well known to be different than that of neighboring SC.

 

[Zach S]

Open carry could turn into "Going armed to the terror of the people" here in NC. Its been explained to me as being legal, until someone gets scared and calls the police.

The common law states that you have to be doing it with the intent of terrifying others, but of course if you're charged you'd have to convince 12 people that you were just minding you own business instead of trying to scare the blissninnies. Good luck.

 

[RoyG]

Notice I didn't say it was illegal. I stated it was discouraged. Open carry will get you more attention then you want. And actually you can have (and are told this by most gun shops when you purchase a hand gun) a hand gun in plain view in your car. It can be fully loaded but must be in plain view. There are no laws against open carry in NC(afaik). But places like RDU and Charlotte are very much on the left/anti side of the fence.

In NC we can conceal carry anytime "when the person is on the person's own premises". No permit is required.

SUBCHAPTER IX. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PUBLIC PEACE.


In SC it's not as easy as you would have others beleive.

Directly quoted off of the www. packing.org South Carolina: Laws and Summaries website

Open carry in general not allowed except in home or place of business or while hunting and fishing.

One more thing...

I am aware of anecdotes

an·ec·dote: A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.

 

[RoyG]

Found this on the AG website,

6. GOING ARMED TO THE TERROR OF THE PEOPLE

By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself with any unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public highways in a manner to cause terror to others. The N.C. Supreme Court has said that any gun is an unusual and dangerous weapon for purposes of this offense. Therefore persons are cautioned as to the areas they frequent with firearms.

NORTH CAROLINA FIREARMS LAWS

 

[RealGun]

Quotes from RoyG:

In SC it's not as easy as you would have others beleive.

You might at least cite something that invalidates what I stated (re SC).

Open carry in general not allowed except in home or place of business or while hunting and fishing.

That is a summary with disclaimers, not a quote of the law. I can ask Ben Davis, PO Administrator for SC and friend, to clarify it in an update, assuming I am correct. My understanding is that "in home" is not precise. I can carry anywhere on my property or place of residence, indoors or outdoors, notwithstanding any prohibition of such by a landlord in a lease agreement or covenants subscribed to in an organized community or condominium. This is not contrary to what I stated previously.

While it also provides disclaimers, The Traveler's Guide to Firearm Laws of the Fifty States 2004; J. Scott Kappas, Esq.; provides a category for "Open carry". It states as follows:

SC - "prohibited in most [public] areas"
NC- "unrestricted under state law except for certain events such as public parades"

Whether right or wrong, my assertion was not unfounded.

an·ec·dote: A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.

If you meant to make a point, I think you need to try harder. So far you have confirmed that my vocabulary was correct. However, I think it would be petty and tedious to pursue this. The story was part of the response to the question about open carry in NC. I didn't represent it, at least not explicitly, as having legal bearing. I do regard my instructor as a credible source, however.

You have to rely on someone. The laws are not so easy for the average person to research and summarize. The antis would like nothing better than for gun owners to be in disarray as to what the regulations might be. I am sure they would like them to worry enough or be sufficiently harassed to avoid open carrying. SC folks would fight such extemporaneous extensions of the intent of the law, closing loopholes that could be used against gun owners:>).

In any case, I wouldn't recommend open carry in public on general principles of self defense. But if I want to mow my grass with no shirt to cover my gun, everyone else can just mind their own business.

 

[Waitone]

"Going armed to the terror of the people" is based in 17th century law in NC. It is a mushy concept in our day and time and has not been updated in the 20th century. Your reading of NC law may be straightforward in your own mind but is is far from crisp and clean in the minds of those who play the game up here.

I have yet to hear from any any source be it legal, professional, commercial or personal that advocates open carry simply because of the ambiguity of the law. The specific reason I originally obtained a NC CCH license was because I read relevant NC gun law and was astounded at how mushily the law was written. I asked LE if a gun in the glove box was considered concealed. Answer consisted of "used to be ok, but not now."

"OK, so what constitutes concealed?"

"I think the officer has 2 seconds to see a gun on the seat. Anything longer is considered concealed." Someone else says the issue isn't time of viewing but rather how many steps an occupant has to use to access a firearm. Locking in a trunk is good. What if you have a pick up and you don't have a trunk? How many steps to you have to do to get to a firearm? If 4 steps is good, does 6 keep me clear? So if I put a trigger lock on my piece, put it in a locked case, put the case in a range bag, lock the range bag then put it behind the seat. . . . does that make me clear?

From the state certified CCH instructor--"Why can't I carry in the open on my hip?" Oh, you could but if you're smart you wouldn't. Why? Because of the interpretation of "going armed to the terror of the people." Directly from the CCH instructor----"Put the gun on your right hip. An officer approaches you from the left and can not see the gun on your right hip. You turn as he approaches and now you have a problem." I am not making this up.

I decided that I'd rather spend my time and money shooting rather than playing with attorneys. To remove any chance of being harassed by LE ill-informed as to the meaning of "going armed to the terror of the people", I obtained my CCH permit. I wanted to transport firearms to and from the range without having to persuade an ill-informed officer that I was in the right.

You may consider my attitude to be that of appeasement or craven or spinelessness in the face of government force. So be it. I just decided not to fight on that particular hill.

 

[RoyG]

The specific reason I originally obtained a NC CCH license was because I read relevant NC gun law and was astounded at how mushily the law was written.

I did so for the same reasons (and to not have to purchase handgun purcahse permits).


RealGun, why did your instructor open carry in NC? Both states have reciprocity agreements. IMHO if my CCW instructor had related that story I would of question why he was bragging and why he was not teaching me the laws on CCW since that is why I was there and paying him for. And I used the same websites you had stated you had gone to to research NC laws.


And I did quote facts straight from the state AGs website.

Waitone, as far as it being a 17th century law the supreme court in NC updated that with their ruling during the 20th century.

 

[fletcher]

Open carry could turn into "Going armed to the terror of the people" here in NC. Its been explained to me as being legal, until someone gets scared and calls the police.

That's pretty much was I was told by someone in the Sheriff's department. IMO a rule of thumb would be - if you're in an area where gun racks with guns in them are in cars/trucks, you can probably open carry with minimal to no hassle.

Local governments (such as the town of Cary in Wake County) can and have prohibited open carry.

 

[RealGun]

RealGun, why did your instructor open carry in NC? Both states have reciprocity agreements. - RoyG

That's a very recent development.

 

[RoyG]

Local governments (such as the town of Cary in Wake County) can and have prohibited open carry.

I think as far as open carry it should just be like "let the buyer beware". Replace buyer with gun owner.