Carry guns, carry ammo, reliability...

[mtnbkr]

I see many posts on gun forums in general regarding the need to fire 200+ rounds of your chosen carry ammo before trusting it for carry purposes. While I understand the need to prove a gun reliable, I'm not sure how doing this whenever you choose a new load is valuable assuming the gun has been reliable and is not a design that pushes the envelop (pocket pistols, custom guns,etc).

Example: I have a Beretta 92f that has proven itself reliable over the course of my range shooting. I shot a box of Ranger T 147gr standar pressure ammo through it. It functioned 100% and was accurate. Since POI and felt recoil was the same for it and the other ammo I've shot through it, I don't need to make any adjustments for the new load. What would be gained by shooting more $20/box ammo? Given that the gun is in good shape and neither the ammo nor the gun push the design limits for the cartridge, how much variability should I expect?

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about custom guns, NIB guns, guns that have recently visited the gunsmith, or guns that push the design envelope (such as the Rohrbaugh R9), nor am I talking about out of spec ammo or questionable ammo (Bubba's reloads at the gunshow). I'm talking about "appropriate for the caliber" guns and standard spec ammo (even +P, but not overly heavy/light bullets, and fast/slow loads).

In a factory gun (or a moderately modified one) that has been proven reliable in the past, what is to be gained by firing hundreds of rounds of your chosen carry ammo before trusting it for carry?

Chris

 

[mtnbkr]

Another thought...

How often to ammo manufacturers change their "formula"? Do they ever change the load in subtle ways and not advertise it (powder change for example)?

Let's say you've fired your 200+ rounds of personal defense ammo and are satisfied. Wouldn't you be concerned about lot to lot variables or an unannounced change (powder, bullet or brass metalurgy)? Wouldn't you be better off firing a smaller amount initially, then testing a few rounds from each lot you buy from (or each box itself)?

Chris

 

[CAS700850]

When I was coming up in the gun culture, the standard line was that you fired 200 rounds of "business" ammo through your semi-automatic to ensure feed and function reliability. But, this was back in the late 1980's, when the world was completeing the transition from revolver to auto for serious business, and there was still some inherent distruct of the autos.

Prsonally, I will shoot a couple hundred rounds of ball ammo, then maybe 50-100 hollowpoints to ensure no feeding problems. At each range session, I'll shoot up the carry ammo in the gun and mags, switch to ball for the rest of the practice, and load new carry ammo after cleaning.

Anyone think I'm living dangerously? I can always get the Smith Model 19 out of the safe and ignore the issue...

 

[mtnbkr]

Prsonally, I will shoot a couple hundred rounds of ball ammo, then maybe 50-100 hollowpoints to ensure no feeding problems. At each range session, I'll shoot up the carry ammo in the gun and mags, switch to ball for the rest of the practice, and load new carry ammo after cleaning.

That's essentially what I do. Shooting 200+ rounds of carry ammo gets expensive when the stuff you carry is $20/box. I've never had an ammo related failure except in my P32 (doesn't like certain brands).

Chris

 

[Gunsnrovers]

What variables can you expect? Good question. It's worth finding out.

Not all guns like all ammo for all people.

It's also not just about reliability. Different ammo can create vastly different sized groups from the same gun. If your shooting to save your life, it is generally considered good form to know where the bullets are going to go with the ammo you have in the firearm. This is why I also apply the 200 round rule with revolvers. It's good practice and I know what the different loads will do when I pull the trigger.

For the $100~$200 or so in ammo, it's not a question I'm going to fret over. My life is worth a boat load more then 200 rounds of JHP. If this is a carry piece, the cost of 2nd place is pretty high.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I love the generally accepted concept of firing X rounds to assure reliability. I have seen numbers vary between 50 and 300. I have yet to find a single justification of why a given number of rounds is actually the correct number to prove reliability. What are the stats to substantiate the firing of X number of rounds means the ammo is reliable in the gun?

Have you ever noticed that when a person's gun starts malfunctioning, one of the claims is often that the recoil spring is worn out? Ammo that worked fine with a new spring then fails to work properly with a worn spring.
Nobody ever seems to take into account firing X number of rounds in a gun with worn springs. For example, your gun may function fine with X brand of ammo and new springs, but as the recoil spring wears out, it loses some of its poundage. Do you then fire X number of rounds with a given ammo at the end of the spring's use life to see if the gun still maintains reliability. For a full-sized 1911, that would be around 2000-4000 rounds.

How about with a dirty gun? When I finish at the range, I don't clean my gun there before going home. I put in my carry ammo and then go home where I usually then clean my gun. Should we also check reliability with very dirty guns as well?

 

[mtnbkr]

For the $100~$200 or so in ammo, it's not a question I'm going to fret over. My life is worth a boat load more then 200 rounds of JHP. If this is a carry piece, the cost of 2nd place is pretty high.

I'm not questioning that. What I am questioning is the need to continue to burn expensive HP ammo if the first box functions properly and puts the bullets where you expect them to go. In my gun, the expensive HP ammo hits in the same spot (or as close as my shooting ability allows) as the cheap practice stuff. Felt recoil is the same too.

Chris

 

[middy]

I use 147 gr JHP 9mm Winchester white box. At $12 per box of 50 I can afford to test 200+ rounds...

 

[mtnbkr]

Let's not make too big of an issue out of the money aspect, the bigger issue is "at which point do you trust your carry combo". As DNS said, there is spring wear, dirty vs clean, etc to contend with. How do you "know" it's reliable and where do you stop out of concern that you're edging up on that threshold where wear, tear, and "dirt" will start to work against you.

I'm really talking about the ones that insist you fire X number of rounds BEFORE you commit to carrying it. Practicing with your carry load periodically is useful both to keep you fresh and to make sure the gun's wear hasn't created a reliability issue with the ammo in question, especially if you practice with something else.

Chris

 

[Gunsnrovers]

I guess it's just persepective. I take three or four different boxes of ammo and try them all out. Pick one I like best and buy a few more boxes. They go down range and if all goes well it's what I'll run with. Then, regularly, I'll bring a box to the range to add to my practice session.

For me, I have not run into many reliability issues with different ammo and different guns. I have experienced some wide variences in handling and accuracy between different brands and loads.

 

[fastbolt]

My preference and practice varies just a bit in this matter ...

If the pistol is one that's already proven itself reliable with other ammunition, then it's not the pistol, but the new ammunition that I'm testing. If the ammunition is from one of the major manufacturers, but still a "new" load/bullet/pressure, then I may decide I'd like to see how my personal pistol does by firing 100-200 rounds through it. I may repeat that periodically as new ammunition lots come through, just to see how things go.

If it's a new pistol, but one similar to others I own or have carried, and that's always proven reliable in the past? Then I'll carefully inspect it prior to shooting it, clean it and run at least 50-100 rounds through it before I start carrying it. I'd prefer to shoot 300+ rounds through it, though, just to break it in.

New pistol design/manufacturer/model/caliber and new ammunition? Well, that combination is going to have to prove itself to me, and that may well take 500 rounds, or more, of assorted ammunition before I start to feel comfortable with it.

I like to mix the ammunition I use for familiarization and break-in, using both my common training ammunition and service ammunition. I've often observed that there's more likelihood of variability in ammunition than in the pistols from the major manufacturers. I like to see how any weapon does with all the ammunition I generally use ...

I also like to shoot at least 50-100 rounds through each magazine, and then I dedicate certain magazines for continued range & training purposes.

Revolvers require much less in order for me to feel comfortable with them.

 

[Black Snowman]

I think fastbolt and I are pretty much in agreement. It's all about what makes you trust the package. I have guns that are so rock solid that if a round goes "bang" consistantly and fits in the chamber I'd trust it to work. These guns are both revolvers BTW.

My autos are tempermental enough that I like to put at least 50 rounds of a given ammo through with the gun dirty to make sure they run. Right now I don't even HAVE any factory ammo that fits in my pistols so my defensive ammo is my range ammo. Which hasn't been 100% but has been close enough for me. One FTFeed in the last 500 rounds or so. Probably seated long. Tap Rack cleared it.

I plan on cooking up some HP loads optimized for reliability for defensive use although civil liability is higher. I'm hoping to not have to shoot at all. Plus my primary defensive weapon in the home has factory ammo, so if I'm using a handgun at all things are quite bad to begin with and my fainancies being decimated in court will just be icing on my miserable life at that point

 

[treeprof]

I have had more issues with magazines than with ammo per se (except with a 1991 that I dumped and a P-32), and so most of my efforts (and expenditures of carry ammo) go into ensuring mag reliability. Although my carry guns do function fine while "dirty", I don't carry dirty guns and am not very concerned about that issue from a purely personal defense standpoint.

 

[HiWayMan]

as far as manufactures changing ammo specs it can happen. I handload for my .357 snub using Speer bullets. My carry load uses a 140 gr JHP. Speer changed this bullet a little bit early this year. The jacket extends further up so less soft lead is exposed and the HP is now a bit smaller. It made me mad, but I still load it.

 

[SapperLeader]

Assuming Im starting off with a new gun, its several hundred rounds of practice ammo, and then I use the 200 round duty test. Im not testing the gun as much as I am the magazines. I dont really trust magazines very much, until they have been proven. With my pump shotgun and my j-frame I only shot 50 rounds of duty ammo through each and hundreds of practice rounds before I trusted them. I dont think the 200 round number is that important, its more whatever number gives you that feeling of confidence that the gun will go bang when you need it to.

 

[Serpico]

The LASD issues 92fs with 147 grain ranger t....we practice with 115 grain ball. I have never had a malfunction with mine and most othes haven't either....I have tested the 147s also and they work fine...the great thing about Berettas is they are boringly reliable and you should have no worries...they will feed empty brass all day long....

 

[Dienekes]

Someone with far better math skills (a statistician, maybe?) should be able to come up with a number of significance for this. If a given combination performs perfectly for X number of rounds then the future probability of a malfunction should be in the order of Y--etc.

There will be at least three variables going--the pistol itself, the particular magazine in use, and then the ammo.

I have visited the reliability issue with revolvers (usually a slam dunk) and too many semiautos.

In my experience if the semiautos are going to act up it happens early in the game and with some frequency. If, on the other hand, they are going to be good guns they settle down nicely early on and stay that way (assuming that you don't change the mix drastically).

Cases in point: I have a P97 that gives feeding problems. I have a neat little chart showing that it acts up approx. every 34 rounds with each of 5 magazines over a 1500 round period. OTOH I have a BHP that choked a couple of times with old mags and some sub-par handloads I fed it within the first hundred or so rounds. I set aside the old mags and did better quality control on my ammo. I am up to 1500 plus rounds with the pistol now and have had no further issues. In other words, the cure was straightforward and it stayed fixed.

Still working on the P97. Personally I think that Ruger made an 8 rounder out of it before its time and didn't get all the bugs from the change found or fixed.

And in the last analysis I still carry a wheelgun. "Six for sure" is pretty close to the truth with a good specimen.

 

[MrMurphy]

When my G30 was new, I put about 200 FMJs through it, and about 40 Federal Hydrashoks (my carry load). Every six to nine months, I switch out carry ammo, buy a new box, and reload from one of my stored boxes of JHPs, keeping the 100-200 on hand I have rotated occasionally, firing off my previously carried ammo.

This ensures I get fresh ammo in my supply, and I use up my old carry rounds.

That means I've now gone through about 8 or 9,000 FMJs, and about 250 rounds of my chosen hollowpoint. Cheaper and easier than going through all 250 at once!

 

[45shooter]

IMHO you need to test the magazine and a particular lot of the carry ammo. Modern factory ammo have very small differences between boxes if they are same lot but there can be quite a large differences between different lots.

I limit my carry ammo to only one type per caliber (except 9mm I have +P for me and non P for my wife) and then buy large quantity of one lot (usually 1,000 round lot) and keep it for future use.

With my proven (reliability) pistols/magazines I'll just shoot about 100 rounds to make sure it works okay.

 

[tbeb]

I think it gives you confidence. My house gun is a semi-auto pistol. I didn't use it for that purpose until it fired 200 consecutive rounds of my chosen load without a malfunction, because that is my standard.