Carry in National Park?

[Nashanthra]

Chickamauga battlefield held the 147th anniversary this past weeked. Took my wife and kid to watch the re-enactments. It was my understanding that we could carry in national parks now, so I had my weapon on me. I went to enter the vistor center, and my wife pointed to a small sign to the left of the main door, not on the door but on the glass wall next to the door that stated it was a federal crime to bring a firearm into the vistor center. I read it slowly (should have took a picture). I then calmly walk back to my car and disarm. Placing my gun in the glove box. My question is is it legal to carry in the park, but just not in the facility. Or am I missing something and I can't carry in the park at all.

I didn't want to ask the rangers at the vistor center, it was busy and I didn't want my unattended car to get broken into because someone overheard my conversation. And I was a little nervous about the question because if it was illegal I didn't want my car then searched.

 

[rtroha]

Outdoors in National Parks is legal. Buildings are still off-limits.

 

[Sam1911]

rtroha has it pretty much correct.

Any bulding with a sign posted such as you saw is considered a federal building and is still off-limits. The park property otherwise is governed by your state laws.

There was a discussion recently of which buildings would be considered off limits and which weren't. IIRC, things like public bathroom facilities, picnic pavilions, etc. would be o.k. but the park offices and such would be posted. I'll try to find that thread -- or maybe some other members can fill in those gaps.

 

[Mainsail]

Buildings are still off-limits.

Not really. It's still illegal to carry into a Park Service building where government employees work. You can still use the outhouses etc.

 

[Nashanthra]

Thanks for the info. guys. I was unsure so my firearm remained in the glove box the rest of the day. The way the sign was posted, I never saw it. My wife said she wouldn't have noticed it if our son had not stopped to look at his reflection in the glass.

This brings up another question. If you are not allowed to carry in a building were the gov't officials work, would one of the historical buildings also be included. There is a tower on the property and some wood frame buildings. The old buildings are usually sealed, but over this weekend they were opened and rangers were giving lectures. None of these places are posted like the visitor center.

 

[Sam1911]

If it is posted, it is off-limits. If it is NOT posted, your state's rules apply.

 

[Nashanthra]

Thanks Sam!

 

[lambertiana]

The language in the law specifically states that a sign must be posted at the entrance of all buildings in which carry is prohibited; without the sign the law is clear that carry is allowed. You should see the sign at places like the visitor's center.

 

[oldbanjo]

Whenever I see an entrance that is posted, I always look for another door and check to see if it's posted. If not that's the door I use. I'd hate to count the times that this has worked.

 

[Sam1911]

Whenever I see an entrance that is posted, I always look for another door and check to see if it's posted. If not that's the door I use. I'd hate to count the times that this has worked.

Interesting. Sort of the ostrich's defense, "If I can't see you then you can't see me, either." Or something ...

Somehow I doubt that the fact that you found an un-posted side entrance makes the building not off-limits. 'Specially if the arresting officer shows you the security tapes of you walking around the building peering at all the signs before finding your magic un-posted entrance.

There's lots of ways to break the law. Fortunately, you can get away with most of them, most of the time, I guess.

 

[oldbanjo]

In SC if the door isn't correctly posted you can carry weapon. Has to be the correct sign, correct height from floor, correct height. If one door isn't posted your legal.

 

[RETG]

SC laws do not pertain to Federal buildings. They do not have to post per the wording of SC law, or in the locations required by SC law, they post by their own Federal Laws.
As someone else stated, outside of the posted Federal building you carry per SC law.

 

[oldbanjo]

Your right, I shouldn't have written that, I didn't mean Fed bldg.

 

[X-Rap]

This is a case where you can buy a lot of trouble with very little effort. I would use a porta john and carry but not a permanent fixture. I would like to see the actual wording of the federal law governing signage in federal parks and rec. areas.
The parks are for the most part pretty pissed about us packing guns in "their" parks so I think they might try to make an example of someone who is in violation.

 

[Sam1911]

I would like to see the actual wording of the federal law governing signage in federal parks and rec. areas.

Happy to oblige! The park buildings considered no-carry-zones are governed by the same rules which apply to all other federal buildings.

The federal buildings dangerous weapons prohibition is spelled out in USC Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 930...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

Specifically subsection "h":

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

In other words, if they don't post the building "conspicuously" near the public entrances, you don't break the law by entering with your carry gun.

Feel better?

 

[Sam1911]

Here's the US Fish and Wildlife Service's explanation of the change (specifically in Federal Wildlife Refuges): http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=E37DD72E-FB6C-9EBE-6B4F45440EDB35CE

Regarding which facilities you're likely to see posted per the federal buildings rule:

While possession on a refuge may generally be allowed under state law, possession of firearms will remain prohibited in Federal facilities. Examples include: visitor centers, refuge administrative office buildings, refuge maintenance offices and workshops, field and backcountry offices, ranger stations and fee collection stations.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Be aware that National Park Service Rangers have followed the law enforcement militarization trend. Watch yourself or you may find yourself in the same situation as this 70 year old man!

http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/9616006/article-National-Park-Service-rangers-arrest-70-year-old-Central-man?instance=home_news_window_left_top_1

 

[NavyLCDR]

Quote:
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

In other words, if they don't post the building "conspicuously" near the public entrances, you don't break the law by entering with your carry gun.

Feel better?

I beg to differ on a small point, Sam. If the building is not conspicuously posted at the public entrances, the person still breaks the law by carrying a gun there. Notice "conviction" is what is prohibited due to lack of signs. The statute does not offer protection against arrest, charges being filed, or prosecution.

 

[X-Rap]

And that LT is my point, dealing with federal weapons charges will be a fun sucker for sure. I do feel better knowing that the statute requires posting and common sence dictates that toilets aren't admin offices although at the federal level they may be very similar except for the decor.

 

[NavyLCDR]

that the statute requires posting and common sence dictates that toilets aren't admin offices although at the federal level they may be very similar except for the decor.

And that, my friend, is the difference between official duties and official doodies.

 

[Sam1911]

Hmmm... interesting. So in your opinion a person risks arrest and trial, even though the federal law clearly states he cannot possibly be convicted?

Not to say that illogical things aren't done from time to time by various law enforcement officials, but that prosecution effort seems to be a "non-starter."

 

[Sam1911]

I beg to differ on a small point, Sam. If the building is not conspicuously posted at the public entrances, the person still breaks the law by carrying a gun there.

Further, are you implying that a toilet building, picnic pavilion, or other un-posted building in a National Park actually IS a federal building and therefore off-limits, even though they're choosing deliberately not to post it so?

(Don't think that's what you meant, but clarifying.)

 

[NavyLCDR]

Further, are you implying that a toilet building, picnic pavilion, or other un-posted building in a National Park actually IS a federal building and therefore off-limits, even though they're choosing deliberately not to post it so?

(Don't think that's what you meant, but clarifying.)

No, I am not implying that at all. A Federal facility is where Federal employees are regularly present in the performance of their official duties. Buildings staffed by Federal employees. Restrooms, picnic buildings, etc are not staffed by Federal employees (except for maybe cleaning crews, but that is usually contracted out AND cleaning 1 or 2 hours per day would not be considered present for regular duties when that same employee would be on the clock for the other 6 or 7 hours of the day).

Hmmm... interesting. So in your opinion a person risks arrest and trial, even though the federal law clearly states he cannot possibly be convicted?

That happens every day. Maybe not on the Federal level, but it does at the local level.

 

[swinokur]

A Federal facility is where Federal employees are regularly present in the performance of their official duties. Buildings staffed by Federal employees.

Bingo LT. The new NPS law that was attached to the credit card act states what you said plus it adds the building must be posted. It makes no reference to every door being posted. Going in after you see a sign and your defense is"but not every door was posted" will not be a valid defense.

This from the NPS web site

Q. Can I take a firearm anywhere I go in the park?
A. No. Federal law prohibits firearms in “federal facilities,” which are generally defined as federally-owned or
-leased buildings where federal employees work on a regular basis. Buildings that meet this definition will have
signs posted at public entrances noting the prohibition on firearms. In addition, privately-owned or -operated
facilities within park boundaries may not allow firearms, consistent with the laws of that state.

Also note a building operated by a private company, ie snack bar, etc. the operator sets the rules and the NPS rules don't apply

 

[NavyLCDR]

Bingo LT. The new NPS law that was attached to the credit card act states what you said plus it adds the building must be posted. It makes no reference to every door being posted.

The NPS law attached to the credit card act makes no mention at all of Federal facilities, buildings, or posting:

SEC. 512. PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME.

(a) Congressional Findings- Congress finds the following:

(1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that `the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed'.

(2) Section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that `except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net'.

(3) Section 27.42 of title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the United States may not `possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges' of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

(4) The regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with Federal and State laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of--

(A) the National Park System; and

(B) the National Wildlife Refuge System.

(5) The existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.

(6) Although the Bush administration issued new regulations relating to the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the National Park System and National Wildlife Refuge System that went into effect on January 9, 2009--

(A) on March 19, 2009, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia granted a preliminary injunction with respect to the implementation and enforcement of the new regulations; and

(B) the new regulations--

(i) are under review by the administration; and

(ii) may be altered.

(7) Congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

(8) The Federal laws should make it clear that the second amendment rights of an individual at a unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System should not be infringed.

(b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--

(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.