Carry mode for Colt .25 Automatic

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Dave/hoff

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Grettings all.

I recently came into possession of a Colt .25 Automatic. (Apparently, earlier year's production were refered to as "Colt Juniors".) This is one neat little pistol and is truly "pocketable". When I acquired this pistol it had been fired fewer than 50 times - I know because when my Dad gave it to me, he also gave me the three boxes of ammo he bought on the same day he picked up the gun (mid 1973); the one opened box contained 15 rounds remaining. I remember Dad letting my brothers and me shoot this pistol once or twice, back in the day, and from then on it was rarely seen, much less fired. I've since run about 100 rounds of new Remington brand ammo through it, just to make it mine, ya know? The two remaining boxes of Western X brand ammo will stay closed.

I'd like to use this pistol as a back-up or maybe even a 3rd gun, but I have yet to decide just how to carry it. It can go "cocked and locked", just like a 1911, but due to it's overall diminutive dimension, lack of a grip safety, and my general lack of familiarity of a manual of arms for the gun, I'd like to have some considered advice on a carry mode for it. It may at some occasions be carried solo, in those situations when carrying my regular cc gun is not a possibility.

I've been carrying it in a fabric pocket holster, full magazine, round chambered, hammer down, and safety engaged. Slow, I know, but for now it is the safest manner of carry I've come up with, and until I get some good advise/increased confidence in carrying it any other way, that's how it'll be.

Please guys, no commentary on the effectiveness of the .25 acp cartridge; I know the limitations and I'm willing to trust my own judgement as to the potential use of this weapon.

Thanks in advance.
 
Sorry not to have been more responsive, but your check for priority consulting services did not arrive until today.

The Colt Junior is a Spanish Star, whether imported or built here after GCA 1968.
Some Stars have full length firing pins, I had a classmate who found that out by shooting himself in the foot with a Model P. I would see if the .25 had a full length or inertial firing pin. If the latter, I would carry it Condition 2, hammer down on the loaded chamber and forget the safety catch. If the former, I would put it on the shelf and get a more modern pocket pistol, because I would not feel certain to hit the tiny safety from Condition 1 and find Condition 3 too slow.


Auggh! I can't tell a Star from an Astra before breakfast. Carry condition comments apply. I would not carry a gun in Condition 2 even with the safety applied, until I was sure the firing pin was an inertial type and the hammer was not riding it against the primer.
 
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Interesting, all of the Colt Junior .25's I've seen are an Astra CUB with Colt grips and slide markings.
Astra provided the guns to Colt for most of their run, then Colt made them under license for a couple years.
The manual says it's safe to carry cocked and locked, however I carry my Astra 2000 loaded with the hammer down and safety off.
Does your Colt look like this pistol (but with Colt emblem)? If so, here is the manual- http://weirdjack.com/guns/manuals/astra_2000.pdf
astra2000t.jpg
 
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yep, loaded chamber and hammer down.....I carried one in my shirt pocked while in-country, which was very heavy material, and in front pants pocket for years after, until I once again showed my real intelligence and sold it - jeeeeesh, what I dummy I was in the 70's....if I had them all back, I'd have the worlds largest musuem.....anyway, neat pocket pistol
 
Gentlemen,
Thank you all very much for your good counsel.

By the serial number (OD54xxx), and according to coltautos.com, the pistol is of 1972 vintage - so that means US manufacture, correct?

Jim-I am not certain how to the differentiate between the "full-length" or "inertial" firing pin. The manual for the Astra Cub, provided by Jackstinson, (thanks Jack) does not help me decide. If I must guess, I'll say that this pistol has the inertial firing pin because it appears to be spring-loaded. In disassembly, racking the slide to engage the lock and removing the barrel and slide, the firing pin appears to be drawn into it's housing and held in place to be released by pressing the trigger.

Yes Jack, aside from the mother-of-pearl grips (mine has checkered walnut w/ the rampant colt badge embedded on both sides) mine looks like yours. Also, mine has slide markings. "COLT AUTOMATIC CALIBER .25" in two lines, and the colt logo on the right (ejection port side) and "COLT'S PT.F.A. MFG. CO. HARTFORD, CT. U.S.A." with the logo on the left.

dit-i can relate to being a dummy in the 70's myself, although for different reasons...it's a wonder I've lived as long as I have!

Thanks again, and Jim, I'll endeavor to get those checks in the mail more expeditiously in the future.

d.
 
Put a straight edge across the back of the firing pin slot at the back of the slide so the pin is flush with the hammer seat, if the pin protrudes into the chamber even a few thousandths it is not inertial and dangerous with a round in the chamber and hammer down. Mine is inertial, it's an Astra Cub, I also have an FIE in the same gun, very poor quality compared to the Astra (But with Spanish proofs) that is inertial. The safety blocks the trigger, so carrying cocked and "locked" is of dubious safety. Since the sear is not blocked, nor is the hammer, if you drop it the sear may release the hammer. Someone may correct me on that, I'm not thin skinned, but I err on the side of safety.
 
The Astra Cub/Colt Junior .25 has an inertia firing pin.

Either carry it with the hammer all the way down resting on the slide, or cocked & locked in a good pocket holster that prevents the safety from getting wiped off.

Loaded carry with the hammer on half-cock is very dangerous!

It is not a safety notch. It is an intercept notch designed to catch the hammer if it slips while cocking the hammer.

If the gun is dropped on the hammer while resting on the intercept notch, it may break the sear or hammer hooks and fire.

rcmodel
 
thats a nice looking gun. but as for carry mode:
don't
if you do carry it, don't load it
if you do load it, don't shoot it
if you do shoot it, don't hit anyone with it
if you hit anyone with it: whatever their mood was before; they are now going to be very angry at you now. for however long it takes them to possibly bleed out- they are going to rain hurt on you.

someone here at THR said a while back about his dad calling them 'throwers'.....

"no commentary on the effectiveness"--i missed that--sorry.
i have a colt 1908; never carried. if the 'scare them' factor of a gun doesn't work at least a p3at has a bit of bite to its bark. good luck to you.
 
That's BS!

How many times are we going to have to hear that a .25 ACP will only make someone mad enough to hurt you?

A FMJ load will give 13" - 16" or more penetration in ballistic jell.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/CCI Blazer and Sellier and Bellot FMJ.html

If you put a mag full of them in someones bread-basket, they will lose all interest in doing anything except getting to a hospital.

rcmodel
 
this is the stuff I was looking for...

Rcmodel, thank you for the link to brassfetcher.com. I was unaware of the site and found the information there to be of great use. To me, 12-14" inches of penetration from 10' with a 50 grain FMJ bullet looks pretty good for a "hideout" sort of gun.

Claude, thanks for taking the second look at my original post. I have understood the reluctance of many to consider the so-called "Mouseguns" as serious defensive weaponry, but to paraphrase the conventional wisdom, 'better the mousegun in your pocket than the hand cannon in your safe...' Sometimes bringing ANY gun is bringing "enough" gun. It's always up to we who carry them to know the limitations of our equipment.

Performing the test described by HisSoldier, my pistol does NOT have an inertial firing pin; based on the advice from Jim Watson then, it appears unsafe to carry the pistol charged and fully ready for use.

Now the issue becomes tactical; i.e., how best to get the weapon into action when it is needed. My thinking is that it will be best deployed from a position of cover, given the need to get the gun from holster to hand, from loaded and uncharged to having a round chambered and acquiring the target. To me, this means that it will NOT be effective as a first line of defense, unless it is my ONLY defense...and in that case I better be well-practiced in this gun's operation.

Gentlemen, thank you all for your contributions, and I'll be pleased to read any additional, sound advice.
 
Dave, it's easy to take the striker out, spin it in a drill press or lathe, take maybe .030" off the length and round it, whatever it takes to make it inertial. I don't trust a trigger block safety myself, if you do you better make sure you never drop it. :what:
Lots of people carry trigger blocked guns locked and loaded, that's your call. I've dropped my 1911, man, what a shock that would have been if it'd gone off!

The striker should be hardened somewhat, maybe 50 RC (?) so you may want to take a stone to it in the drill press, checking the length often. Parts may be hard to find if you go too short, but it's a very simple part to make.

P.S., I'm a machinist, not a gunsmith, so take it or leave it. That's what I would do.
 
Thanks for the advice, HisSoldier. I am neither machinist nor gunsmith so won't attempt this fix myself. I've pretty well made the decision not to rely too heavily on this pistol, and since it was given to me by my Dad, there is a little hesitancy to approach any modification projects that in my inexperience could lead leave this tool rendered useless.

I may look around a bit to find a 'smith to do the job, or perhaps look for an aftermarket firing pin. So my understanding now is that there is no difference, other than a few thousandsths of an inch, between the full length and inertial firing pins?
 
JUst carry it loaded hammer Down I carried one years ago that way. I have a old Beretta 950 with NO SAFETY manual says can carry loaded hammer down. People have carried guns that way for years Only last few years it become so dangerous. In people minds. Guess Iam just getting old Heck I remember as a kid people lowered hammers on 1911 and lever action rifles all the time Ive even decocked a S&W revolver WOW thats hard . I still decock my flint lock now and then .
 
Thats bad advice pard!

Lots of guns are perfectly safe hammer down including the 950 Beretta, and the 1911 Colt.
They both have an inertia firing pin that is shorter then the hole in the slide. It is not resting on the primer, so a blow to the hammer cannot make it fire.

Other guns like the 94 Winchester you mentioned are totally unsafe with the hammer resting on the full-length firing pin & primer. That is why it has a very robust safety notch on the hammer.

Carrying hammer down safely depends entirely on the design of the gun!

And on some guns it simply isn't safe.

rcmodel
 
Colt issued a recall bulletin for the .25 Junior Pistols in 1984 for the purpose of modifying the firing mechanism to prevent accidental discharge (at no charge to the owner).

Reference: Law Enforcement Technology, issue of 12/84.

An e-mail to Colt customer service with your pistol's s/n would probably result in an answer as to whether your pistol was taken care of in this recall. I do not know if Colt is still carrying out the modification mentioned in the recall buletin.

Bob
 
My opinion is a little different, perhaps because of my past training I'm aware that if something can go wrong it will. Hence, when I carried a small auto, a Colt 1908 in fact, I always carried it chamber empty. A round going off in your pocket will make a mess of your day. I also on occasions carried a small Colt Junior, also in .25. Same thing, the time it takes you to rack the slide is micro seconds, nothing compared to time loss going to the emergency room . Also, those who say a .25 is useless, stand in front of one, on the mean streets of the large cities, .22s and .25s have probably killed more people than all the large bore handguns in the US. I personally know of two police officers killed by the .25 ACP. One in my home town in Michigan and one in Chicago.:banghead:
 
I know a retired Texas state trooper who carries a 25 baby browning with the chamber empty. The last several shootings with 25s I heard of resulted in fatalities- some instant, some after a few minutes but none still breathing when the emergency responders arrived.

several years ago, a local policement was hit in the neck with a 25. He was injured badly enough that he was unable to return fire and is now on permanent disability.

The first jetfires were designed for hammer down carry with the safety added later as an afterthough or political nicety. I haven't examined a baby browining or colt 1908/FN '05 in a while but would like to do so to figure out if there is any conceivable way one of those could fire without the trigger being pulled. For instance, could the striker be jarred out of engagement with the sear or is it so closely channeled that this would be impossible. Or, could some spontaneous parts failure cause them to go off.
 
My little tip barrel .25 Beretta's instruction booklet shows how to load it including popping up the barrel to put a round in the chamber for DA fire from hammer down, and I like that a bunch better than easing down the hammer of my 1911's, but I still won't have my life rely on any number of chatboard anecdotal accounts of the veracity of the little sucker.
 
A .25 caliber nearly killed me quite well. I have posted before, I was hit in the shoulder, bullet deflected off of shoulder, it came out and hit the artery in my neck causing massive blood loss, the bullet lodged against my spine causing signifigant nerve damage to my right arm that required 1 year of physical therapy.

It was a bloody near fatal mess for me.
 
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Before the miniature .32s and .380s came out, I sometimes got by with a CZ45 6.35.
DAO, granddaddy of the Seecamp, and nothing but slick, safe, and reliable.
 
I now carry a Kel Tec 32 but if I had to go back to a ineffective .25 for a " go to the store for a quart of milk gun", I would lose no sleep over it. Also for what it's worth I owned a 950, it did bother me that in case of a misfire ( very rare in .25 ACP) , instead of simply racking the slide, I would have to tell my opponent to wait a minute until I flipped open the barrel and dug out the bad cartridge with my fingernail, then worked the slide to chamber a new round. Maybe a small thing, and not likely to happen, but it still bothered me so I never carried it. :)
 
I haven't examined a baby browining or colt 1908/FN '05 in a while but would like to do so to figure out if there is any conceivable way one of those could fire without the trigger being pulled. For instance, could the striker be jarred out of engagement with the sear or is it so closely channeled that this would be impossible.
Click to expand...
Yes.
I do not recommend carrying either loaded.

When a Baby Browning or similiar Colt is in good repair, and the striker fits as it should, it cannot clear the sear with the safety on.

As they wear in / wear out, more slop develops in the slide to frame, and striker to sear fit. Eventually I could see it getting bad enough one could ND.

Also, the safety engagement varies some from gun to gun as to how much force it takes to take it off safe. Loose in a pocket, I could see a safety getting moved to off.

I have made a pocket holster for my Baby that blocks the safety in place. But I still carry it chamber empty about 98% of the time.

rcmodel
 
Congratulations to us!

I have to tell you all that this has been one of THE MOST informative and most politely conducted threads that I have ever read on this webpage.

The information, opinions, and advice that you folks have offered up has been intelligent, reasoned, concise, tested, and verifiable. Everything an information forum should be! Thanks to all of you for actually taking "the high road". These responses have been a pleasure to read.

I have seen so many of the threads on this page spiral downward into insults and ridiculous character assasination over a difference of opinion.
Lately I've thought of just deleting this site from my favorites and looking elsewhere for my information, due to the confrontational nature of some posters here.

I'm glad I gave it one more try, and I'm especially glad to have made the electronic "acquaintence" of all who responded.
 
Hate to bump an old thread, post & leave but since there isn't too much on the next on these little guns. Figure this may help the next guy.
Gotta Junior Colt 25 ACP, circa 1960.

DO NOT carry these little guns hot! The thumb safety will not prevent a Arista Cub / Junior Colt, etc from firing! Even when half-cocked! Frankly you likely will not notice an increase in force to pull the trigger.
Also, they did not come with inertial firing pins. Drops / impacts can set the rounds off. Rack the slide and look at the barrel. If it has an M stamping, it has been sent back to colt for a retrofit intertial pin.

Here is a pdf of a Junior Cub 25 ACP manual I googled.

http://www.lovemyguns.com/colt_junior.pdf


Personally, because of the weak safety and striker problems. I would carry these pistols in Condition 3.
Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
If you could count on the gun 100% I would carry it condition 2. A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down. But... I wouldnt count on these guns being 100% so...







MODEL JUNIOR COLT,
25 AUTO CALIBER, PISTOL

RECALL: It has come to our attention that some of the small pocket automatic pistols marketed by Colt in 25 ACP between 1957 and 1973 (these have serial numbers ending in CC or beginning with OD) are susceptible to accidental discharge if improperly carried with a round in the chamber and dropped or otherwise carelessly handled. This is because of the type of firing mechanism in these pistols. Some of these pistols were marked "Junior Colt/Cal. 25," others "Made in Spain for Colt," and still others " Colt Automatic/Cal. 25."

COLT WILL MODIFY THE FIRING MECHANISM OF THESE PISTOLS FREE OF CHARGE. This modification will substantially reduce the possibility of accidental discharge.

If you own one of these pistols, please notify Colt in writing (see below) but do not return the pistol at this time. You will be given further details and instructions as to when and how to ship your firearm to Colt. We will replace the firing pin and the firing pin spring, and return the gun as promptly as possible.

Please do not delay in writing to us. Meanwhile, carry your pistol only with an empty chamber. Please send a postcard or note giving your name, address and the serial number of your pistol to:

Colt Industries, Inc.
Firearms Division
P.O. Box 1868
Department RC 25
Hartford, CT 06101

Source:
Law Enforcement Technology, December 1984; page 29
Click to expand...
 
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