Carrying/engaging threats in church
- Thread starter Jordan
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Tropical Buzz
Member
Generally, I spend a lot of my time on THR reading and absorbing, in deference to the knowledge and experience exhibited by many of you. This thread touched a nerve, however, as it recalls one of the ugliest and most violent incidents in the history of St. Lucia.
A few years ago, two ne'er do well social dropouts found kinship in their common inability to fit in with mainstream society. A shared combination of mental instability, drug use and hatred/resentment for anything that represented the society that "rejected" them drew them together like magnets in a paper bag.
On new year's day 2001, the pair decided to make their mark and strike at what they saw as the heart and soul of everything they feared and hated. In the center of downtown Castries, approximately 300 people were atteding a new years service at the majestic 19th century stone cathedral when the two men burst in armed with machetes, bottles of gasoline and torches. They tore into the panicked and scattering worshipers, swinging the cutlasses and setting people on fire. The priest tried valiantly to intervene and was badly beaten and burned. A nun was brutally beaten to death and by the time they were done, two people lay dead and thirteen badly burned and injured, some of them close friends and aquaintances of my family. The brave priest died a few days later in hospital. One family friend, a quiet, 60 year old slightly built fellow - often snickered at for appearing effeminate - fought the attackers and saved at least one woman from harm before being badly injured and burned over 40% of his body. Other than that, the two miscreants were largely unopposed by the shocked and terror stricken crowd and after a four minute rampage, they fled the scene on foot. Enough people regained their composure and caught the bastards a few blocks away and dealt them a serious beating before the police arrived and took them into custody. Early reports from shaken witnesses swore that there were at least four to six attackers but in reality, incredibly, all that carnage was the work of just two men. My parents were supposed to have been at that service, but thankfully decided not to go.
Back on topic now and the point of all this - The story is that there were supposedly a number of CC permit holders in the congregation (including one of the badly injured). Apparently none of them had their weapons with them in church out of "respect for the House of God". Though we have crime and other issues like any other society, life is generally peaceful and the idea of bringing a gun to church was viewed as an apalling sacrilage. That day changed a few minds, including my own as I still shudder at the thought of what could have happened to my feisty mother and my tough ol' Dad, a noble old soldier who would surely have resisted and fought to protect his wife and others. I am not a regular church goer but I always carry there (and practically everywhere else).
At a very recent funeral, I was reminded of how quickly poeple forget. The service - at the same cathedral - was for the brother of my best friend who stood at my side less than a week before at my own father's funeral. When we arrived at the cemetary, I glanced around before exiting my vehicle to put on my jacket. I was carrying a Glock 25 (.380) OWB at 4 o'clock in a De Santis holster and I quickly stepped out to whip on the jacket. Unfortunately, a couple came around from the blind side of the tall vehicle (4 Runner) and the woman pointed at my waist and loudly exclaimed "Firearm" in a disgusted tone and disposition. The man looked at me and shook his head disapprovingly muttering something about ridiculous people before continuing on. I felt bad and cursed myself for allowing the gun to be seen but my thoughts soon turned to wondering what these same people were thinking on the morning of January 1st, 2001.
BTW a few of my friends CCW in church since that day, usually in ankle holsters. And next time you go to church I'll understand if you silently thank God that my long winded posts are few and far between, lol!
A few years ago, two ne'er do well social dropouts found kinship in their common inability to fit in with mainstream society. A shared combination of mental instability, drug use and hatred/resentment for anything that represented the society that "rejected" them drew them together like magnets in a paper bag.
On new year's day 2001, the pair decided to make their mark and strike at what they saw as the heart and soul of everything they feared and hated. In the center of downtown Castries, approximately 300 people were atteding a new years service at the majestic 19th century stone cathedral when the two men burst in armed with machetes, bottles of gasoline and torches. They tore into the panicked and scattering worshipers, swinging the cutlasses and setting people on fire. The priest tried valiantly to intervene and was badly beaten and burned. A nun was brutally beaten to death and by the time they were done, two people lay dead and thirteen badly burned and injured, some of them close friends and aquaintances of my family. The brave priest died a few days later in hospital. One family friend, a quiet, 60 year old slightly built fellow - often snickered at for appearing effeminate - fought the attackers and saved at least one woman from harm before being badly injured and burned over 40% of his body. Other than that, the two miscreants were largely unopposed by the shocked and terror stricken crowd and after a four minute rampage, they fled the scene on foot. Enough people regained their composure and caught the bastards a few blocks away and dealt them a serious beating before the police arrived and took them into custody. Early reports from shaken witnesses swore that there were at least four to six attackers but in reality, incredibly, all that carnage was the work of just two men. My parents were supposed to have been at that service, but thankfully decided not to go.
Back on topic now and the point of all this - The story is that there were supposedly a number of CC permit holders in the congregation (including one of the badly injured). Apparently none of them had their weapons with them in church out of "respect for the House of God". Though we have crime and other issues like any other society, life is generally peaceful and the idea of bringing a gun to church was viewed as an apalling sacrilage. That day changed a few minds, including my own as I still shudder at the thought of what could have happened to my feisty mother and my tough ol' Dad, a noble old soldier who would surely have resisted and fought to protect his wife and others. I am not a regular church goer but I always carry there (and practically everywhere else).
At a very recent funeral, I was reminded of how quickly poeple forget. The service - at the same cathedral - was for the brother of my best friend who stood at my side less than a week before at my own father's funeral. When we arrived at the cemetary, I glanced around before exiting my vehicle to put on my jacket. I was carrying a Glock 25 (.380) OWB at 4 o'clock in a De Santis holster and I quickly stepped out to whip on the jacket. Unfortunately, a couple came around from the blind side of the tall vehicle (4 Runner) and the woman pointed at my waist and loudly exclaimed "Firearm" in a disgusted tone and disposition. The man looked at me and shook his head disapprovingly muttering something about ridiculous people before continuing on. I felt bad and cursed myself for allowing the gun to be seen but my thoughts soon turned to wondering what these same people were thinking on the morning of January 1st, 2001.
BTW a few of my friends CCW in church since that day, usually in ankle holsters. And next time you go to church I'll understand if you silently thank God that my long winded posts are few and far between, lol!
The91Bravo
Member
From another thread:
Before becoming a LEO I carried, and now I continue to carry. I will never stop.
I am a sheepdog, and always will be.
I am a member of another forum and we had a VERY VERY good discussion on this topic. Fantastic resources and info there too.
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=73549
also:
http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8322
As well as Scripture to give you ammunition.
Good luck brother
Before becoming a LEO I carried, and now I continue to carry. I will never stop.
I am a sheepdog, and always will be.
I am a member of another forum and we had a VERY VERY good discussion on this topic. Fantastic resources and info there too.
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=73549
also:
http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8322
As well as Scripture to give you ammunition.
Good luck brother
jimmertoons
Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
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- 46
Several of the congregation members are ccw holders, have and do carry during services. We have sarted discussions on coordinating our efforts, to include outside security, as well as inside. Our church is very modern, and the designers have taken into account safety and security of the youngsters. That being said, though, we do need to improve some areas. The Senior Pastor is very involved with this planning, and is very supporting of the idea.
As the Bible states in Luke 22:36
"And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword."
As the Bible states in Luke 22:36
"And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword."
wheelgunslinger
Member
In pagan circles, it varies.
The Asatru are usually armed to the teeth.
The Wiccans vary, but there will be at least one Athame in the room.
Shamanists are usually not armed. Except for the group in which I'm involved.
In the back of my mind, I keep expecting some whacked out fundamentalist from one group or another to bust in and start doing Yhvh's work for him.
In college I had one particularly disturbed fundie follow me around for months and really get loud and livid when I finally told him where to stick it.
So, I carry when I'm in groups doing journeys, drums circles, and everywhere else.
The Asatru are usually armed to the teeth.
The Wiccans vary, but there will be at least one Athame in the room.
Shamanists are usually not armed. Except for the group in which I'm involved.
In the back of my mind, I keep expecting some whacked out fundamentalist from one group or another to bust in and start doing Yhvh's work for him.
In college I had one particularly disturbed fundie follow me around for months and really get loud and livid when I finally told him where to stick it.
So, I carry when I'm in groups doing journeys, drums circles, and everywhere else.
Robert Hairless
Member
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- Oct 11, 2003
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- 3,983
easyg:
You're probably right. The thing is, though, that if you're concerned about the possiblity of violent attack only in certain places why go to those places?
Smart people stay away from places in which they do anticipate the possibility of violent attack. Since they only go to places where they don't anticipate that possibility, why would any sensible person ever want a concealed carry permit? No one should need one in any Gun Free Zone: those places are all supposed to be safe.
In fact if you Google "church shooting" and related terms you'll see that many violent attacks take place in churches as in other Gun Free Zones.
If a church knew that it would be attacked on a particular day, I assume that the minister and congregation would stay away and out of the way while law enforcement was there to apprehend the attackers.
You're probably right. The thing is, though, that if you're concerned about the possiblity of violent attack only in certain places why go to those places?
Smart people stay away from places in which they do anticipate the possibility of violent attack. Since they only go to places where they don't anticipate that possibility, why would any sensible person ever want a concealed carry permit? No one should need one in any Gun Free Zone: those places are all supposed to be safe.
In fact if you Google "church shooting" and related terms you'll see that many violent attacks take place in churches as in other Gun Free Zones.
If a church knew that it would be attacked on a particular day, I assume that the minister and congregation would stay away and out of the way while law enforcement was there to apprehend the attackers.
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