Carrying in posted places in NM? (Legal not moral)

[Mags]

This is not a moral question, this is a legal question.

Can you legaly carry CCW in NM into a posted place if the gunbuster sign is less tha 144 square inches?

I do not want to hear about why you should not carry into an anti 2nd business. What I want to know is if the gunbuster sign has to be 144 sq in for it to be observed. Usually the gunbuster signs around here are 4x4 (16sq in) or 6x6 (36sq in).

Here are the applicable excerpts from NMSA.

NMSA 29-19-12:

C. provision of authority for a private property owner to disallow the carrying of a concealed handgun on the owner’s property;

NMSA 30-14-6:

B. The notices posted shall prohibit all persons from trespassing or entering upon the property, without
permission of the owner, lessee, person in lawful possession or his agent. The notices shall:
(1) be printed legibly in English;
(2) be at least one hundred fortyfour
square inches in size;
(3) contain the name and address of the person under whose authority the property is posted or the name
and address of the person who is authorized to grant permission to enter the property;
(4) be placed at each roadway or apparent way of access onto the property, in addition to the posting of the
boundaries; and
(5) where applicable, state any specific prohibition that the posting is directed against, such as "no
trespassing," "no hunting," "no fishing," "no digging" or any other specific prohibition.

Numbers 2 and 5 is what I think would apply to gunbuster signs. So I am wondering if not a prohibited place by state or federal law such as liquor establishments (that serve more than beer and wine) and federal court houses, do the gunbuster signs less tha 144 sq in have legal merit?

 

[Mags]

Bump for a second opinion. NavyLT, Sam1911, LeadCounsel where are you guys at? Really looking forward from hearing from you guys on this.

 

[rd2007]

In Texas, according to my CHL instructor, the sign must follow the letter of the law. That makes sense to me and I believe its purpose is to stop people from forcing their opinion on others.

 

[Mags]

Thanks RD, I thought it to be similiar to Texas 30.06 regs.

 

[Mags]

Any more opinions?

 

[wishin]

What follows 29-19-12 C? Any other language that ties "provision of authority" to the signage paragraph?

This leads me to believe that the intent was not concealed carry:

(4) be placed at each roadway or apparent way of access onto the property, in addition to the posting of the boundaries;

 

[Mags]

^ Agreed, but 29-19-12 is the only thing I could find on trespass. The CC law cites that no cc in posted places but does not go into specifics of what posted means.

From NM DPS

E. Carrying prohibited on private property. In addition to other limitations stated in the act, a licensee may not carry a concealed handgun on or about his person on private property that has signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons or when verbally told so by a person lawfully in possession of the property.

Not much on consequences or specifics huh?

 

[Sam1911]

Bump for a second opinion. NavyLT, Sam1911, LeadCounsel where are you guys at?

Ha ha! Sorry, I'm a long way from NM!

EDITED: The section of the law only says:

In addition to other limitations stated in the act, a licensee may not carry a concealed handgun on or about his person on private property that has signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons or when verbally told so by a person lawfully in possession of the property.

It doesn't specify how the property must be posted. Just as it does not specify what words the owner must use when asking you to leave.

I don't think applying the rules of a legal "No Trespassing" sign to the gun-buster sign is legitimate. When other provisions modify the point under discussion, they seem to always say, "so-and-so will adhere to NMSA 1978 Section ##-##-# regarding this-that-and-the-other." I think if they meant the sign to have to conform to 29-19-12, they would have said so.

I REALLY don't think I'd want to try to argue this point in court -- and I REALLY don't think I'd want to try to convince an arresting officer of that theory.

 

[NMPOPS]

If it's posted, don't carry, regardless of the size of the sign. Carrying illegally is not considered a trespass, it's a violatio of the CCw law and you will loose you permit. Personnally as a retired NM cop if a place is posted, they lost my business, even if I've been dealing with them for years.

 

[captainofiron]

I recently encountered a no guns sign on the El Paso electric office

I read the law that it refers to, and it isnt even correct.

I do know that recently NM passed a law that allowed property owner to deny CC on their property, If I understand it, that law passed with the one that allowed us to carry inside of restaurants that serve alcohol

Anyways, the NM dot website is terrible, but what can you say its NM, hahaha

 

[NavyLCDR]

SEE MY ADDITIONAL REPLY BELOW THIS ONE!


First, NMSA 29-19-12 C does not prohibit concealed carry anywhere. NMSA 29-19-12 C grants authority to the department of public safety to enact regulations. That statute has no effect on the concealed carrier. Whatever regulations regarding concealed carry enacted by the department of public safety would.

That's why there are no punishments associated with 29-19-12 C - it only applies to the department of safety.... not to the citizen.

In regards to the signs required by 30-14-6.... IF the sign meets the requirements of that statute, and IF you are found on private property in violation of that sign, THEN you can be automatically charged with trespassing on the spot, regardless of any interaction with the owner of that property. However, LEO cannot cite you for illegally possesing a firearm - because the sign is for trespassing, not for firearms possession. Your presence on the property was illegal because of the sign, but your carrying of a firearm was not illegal. Those signs are meant to protect private property in the absence of the owner of the property.

So, let's say that a business has a sign that conforms to 30-14-6 and a LEO sees your gun in that establishment. That LEO may now cite you for trespassing without having to talk to anyone else.

Now, let's say that a store as a little 6 inch square sign on the door with a picture of a gun, a red circle and slash, and a LEO sees your gun on the property. They cannot cite you for tresspassing now because the property was not properly posted.

Now, let's say that the store has the little 6 inch square sign on the door, and the owner (or employee) sees your gun. The owner (or employee) can ask you to leave the store. If you refuse to leave, now LEO can cite you for trespassing because the actual owner (or employee) told you to leave in person.

The question is, has the department of safety specified any specific notice, in the form of a sign, that a property owner can post to prohibit firearms? I don't believe they have.... at least not that I can find.

 

[NavyLCDR]

OK... now I found the requirements for the sign. Any sign posted at the business is sufficient. The sign in the photo posted above is legal, even though the reference is incorrect.

http://www.nmcpr.state.nm.us/nmac/parts/title10/10.008.0002.htm

10.8.2.16 TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF LICENSE:

F. Carrying prohibited on private property. In addition to other limitations stated in the act, a licensee may not carry a concealed handgun on or about his person on private property that has signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons or when verbally told so by a person lawfully in possession of the property.

Notice that the requirements only apply to CONCEALED carry however, and do not affect open carry! Also notice that there are no requirements for the size, shape, or language of the sign. Technically, the sign could be written in Yiddish and still apply.

Enforcement of the regulation:

10.8.2.20 ENFORCEMENT:

B. Authority to confiscate license. A peace officer may confiscate a license if the licensee has violated any provision of the act or this rule, or committed any other violation that could result in arrest of the licensee. If the licensee has committed a violation of the act or rule warranting suspension or revocation of the license, the officer shall file an affidavit of violation as provided in Subsection B of 10.8.2.21 NMAC.

Penalty for conviction:

10.8.2.21 SUSPENSION AND REVOCATION OF A LICENSE:

A. Grounds. The department may suspend or revoke a license if the licensee:

(1) is found to have violated any provision of the act or this rule;

There is no jail time or fine associated with violation, because a person would violate an administrative code, not an actual stutate or law.

So, back to our scenario - business posted with a 6 inch square no guns sign - LEO becomes aware of your gun - he can confiscate your license IF you were carrying your gun concealed. So the question is, if the gun was concealed, how did anyone know about it? If you were open carrying, LEO could NOT (leagally) confiscate your license, because the regulation above only prohibits concealed firearms, not openly carried firearms.

If the owner became aware of your gun and asked you to leave and you didn't... not only would the paragraph above apply (IF your gun was concealed), but also add to that trespassing.

Actually, rereading the regulation, it states that a sign must be posted prohibiting "the carrying of concealed weapons". So, a big question would be: does a sign that has a gun with a red circle and slash that says "no firearms" qualify? I don't think so. A sign like that would not be prohibiting concealed weapons specifically - but that would be a huge question that a judge would answer one way or the other and would be a huge risk.

 

[Mags]

Thanks Navy LT. It seems the NM law is so poorly written it kind of contradicts itself with concealed vs. open carry and the gunbuster sign.

 

[captainofiron]

Yes the NM law is terribly written, if you search through the NM dot website you will find archives, which are open to search, and you can see drafts and all sorts of stuff, what is this amateur hour?

Anyways, since I and my CHL are from Texas, I just do like I do back home, except I mind the minor variations in the NM and TX CC laws

Im just happy that now you dont have to disarm before going into a restaurant with alcoholic beverages served

 

[Mags]

Im just happy that now you dont have to disarm before going into a restaurant with alcoholic beverages served

So long as the restuarant doesn't serve mixed drinks. Pretty stupid, huh?

 

[TexasBill]

You can go into a place that serve alcoholic beverages but not one that serves mixed drinks? How does that work? Beer, wine and straight shots?

 

[Mags]

Just beer and wine no shots. There are only about 70 restuarants out of over 700 with liquor licenses in the Albuquerque area that meet the criteria.