Carrying Single Action with Hammer Down

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" doubt too many horse soldiers waited for a command to load their revolvers. Besides, loading a SAA on horseback is fairly difficult. That would be something done BEFORE combat (like chambering a round in a 1911.)"

As a former company commander, in combat, let me assure you that soldiers who carry loaded weapons without authorization face stiff penalties. We have all seen in this current war several cases of "friendly fire" accidents. Officers and NCOs exercise strict control to minimize such accidents.

While the SAA might well be loaded while dismounted, it would be loaded on command, not at the whim of the individual cavalryman.

You say the gun was carried cocked and locked "during combat, not before." The gun is loaded in anticipation of combat, and from that point is carried cocked and locked.

"I would think JMB would have some say--being that it was his design & all.."

Very little say -- he wasn't an Army officer, and designed to suit the Army and Army tactics. And genius that he was, his genius was limited to mechanical designs, not to tactics. He had no tactical experience at all.

"OK, but in 1940, the Cavalry went from grain-fed to gasoline-powered transportation. In that regard, Cond. 3 was mandatory on ALL weapons b/c no one wanted ricochets in their tank or jeep."

And they carried over the standard safety practices of an earlier era.

I repeat, I have NEVER seen any official manual that advocates carry in Condition 2. All manuals I have seen mandate carry in either Condition 3 until ordred to load or Condition 1.
 
Edward,

I was ONLY speaking of the mechanism itself, not the practice. Vern's post also appeared to contain info about the mechanism, which is what I responded to. If you look over my posts on this matter you'll see that the only sort of hammer lowering I've ever advocated takes two hands and should be done well away from the action.

Cthulhu,

I thought I was comparing apples. Aside from the DA trigger, the mechanism and internal safeties involved in hammer down carry of a 1911 and CZ are identical. All that is different is preparation for firing.

Of interest, your post about holsters delineates an ideal example of when to carry Cond. 2 for single actions: When a holster is unavailable. As you rightly state, a good holster is necessary to insure that the light safety lever stay in place. But if time or dress make a holster impossible, the 1911 owner has another option which provides a loaded yet inert pistol that can be tucked in waistband or pocket.

Thanks for thinking of it.
 
I was ONLY speaking of the mechanism itself, not the practice. Vern's post also appeared to contain info about the mechanism, which is what I responded to. If you look over my posts on this matter you'll see that the only sort of hammer lowering I've ever advocated takes two hands and should be done well away from the action.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear that, Handy. I wondered if you was joking or speaking from a totally technical point of view. Even so, I figured maybe a newbie would misconstrue your words to think it was all right so felt compelled to say something.

Good thread.
 
cthulhu.......I carry in condition 2 all the time.....tests have been made and shown that a hard blow to the hammer of a 1911 will not cause a discharge......when I am out in the woods, I have plenty of time to thumb back the hammer, don't need it cocked and locked.....If I were a LEO, it would be a different matter........I guess a person has to do what they are more comfortable with..........I have carried cocked and locked also, just don't need to carry it that way anymore........
 
Handy,
I never described the thumb safety as light. Light, wildly extended safeties have no business being on a carry gun. They should be positive and smooth, but not light.

To all,
My problem with advocating condition 2 carry of 1911's surrounds not the mechanical saftey of carrying it in such a manner, but rather the actual decocking of the weapon to condition 2, and its effective deployment from that condition. Can a 1911 be decocked safely? Certainly. Do I think that decocking a 1911 is safer than just applying the thumb safety? Absolutely not. It is skill that requires attention to the order of the steps involved and deliberate movements with restrained, callibrated force.

Although I may wish decocking skill was a pre-requisite for gun ownership and proficiency, it is certainly not the case.
For some anecdotal evidence (which I know everyone loves, but there is little professional research done on the phenomenon) I will cite my observations of people handling firearms at the gunshop where I work part time. Of all the gun handling skills I see demonstrated while customers are examining the firearms, the actions most often botched are cocking the hammer, and manually lowering the hammer. It is especially apparent when using commander hammers and beavertail grip safeties. This is not confined to newbies either, nor only to the 1911. Whether it was lever action rifles, CZs, hammered double/pump shotguns, SAA clones, customers have slipped while cocking/decocking them, or decocked in the wrong sequence, allowing the hammers to fall hard enough to make everyone around them cringe. This occured under relaxed conditions, not the stressed, adrenaline-filled conditions present pre or post gunfight.

On the otherhand, I have not witnessed one person, even those who had never before handled a 1911, cause the gun to dryfire while activating the thumb safety.

I cannot and will not advocate people to carry a 1911 hammer down. By doing so, you give up many of the advantages of the 1911 has over other designs. In condition 2 you must draw and quickly, infallibly cock the strongly sprung hammer, that may or may not be bobbed to minimum dimensions and/or protected by a protruding sight or grip safety. Then aim/point/use "the force" and fire. Who among you will wager that they could do this and make accurate effective hits faster, everytime, than someone carrying C&L (or TDA)? If so, can you do it using only one hand? Using the only the weak hand?


To say you don't need to carry an 1911 condition one because you are not a gunfighter or LEO, or special forces operator isn't a very convincing argument either. Outside of the target range if you are carrying a weapon, you are intending to use it, if necessary, to disable/kill an adversary intent on harming you or those in your immediate vicinity. You're adversary might have teeth and claws, rather than a gun or knife, but does that make them any slower or less dangerous? If you don't expect to run into a dangerous animal or human adversary, why are you carrying in the first place? The theoretically greater "safety" of an already condition 2 1911 will be of little comfort to the user if they are mauled by an animal or shot by an opponent with less regard for the safety of his weapon. If you expect your hightened situational awareness to forsee the dangerous encounter and allow you sufficent time to draw and cock the pistol before you need it, then by all means stop reading here and carry however you wish. Better yet stop carrying firearms at all, don a snazzy costume and go fight crime using your other superpowers.

As for holsterless carry, your conditions or dress code allow the concealment of a 39oz+ pistol shoved in a belt or pocket, but not a belt holster that is scantly larger? How about a much smaller yaqui slide perhaps? Lets hope you don't feel the need to carry spare magazines either. If time and urgent need didn't allow me to put on even a paddle holster, I would still feel confident with carrying a C&L 1911, with its redundant safeties, in my pocket, and there would be no time wasted on a two-handed decocking procedure, or on the draw. I would be more worried about dropping it on the ground before I need to use it, or fumbling the draw from my pocket, than I would be of having the gun accidentally discharge.

If you intend to carry a 1911 for self-protection from foes with 2 legs or 4, do it in condition 1 and use a holster, whenever possible, that protects the trigger. Don't sacrifice its ability to be put quickly into action with one hand for some imperceptible gain in safety. If you are unable or unwilling to do this, then carry a different type of firearm.
 
Well, I don't think gun handling is necessarily at its finest at the showcase, but we all get the point.

Personally, I believe that the "serious" use of a 1911 should be from Cond. 1, and I don't think anyone here would argue that. But as Jem shows, not all carry situation need be serious. A decocked SA is completely inert, and could be put in a seat box or back pack without worry, yet be ready to go in a moment. For someone that likes the gun and doesn't want a different one, this kind of carry will always be attractive, despite not matching any preferred doctrine.

It is also the way the vast majority of hammered SA pocket guns are carried (since this isn't just a 1911 thread). So the reality is that it is done and it's going to continue to be done.

As demonstrated, the trick is the decock. There is a right and a wrong way to do this. The right way is fairly fool proof, just as cond. 1 is foolproof if practiced correctly.

The wrong way falls into the same category as all other poor gun handling habits. It's wrong to put your finger inside the trigger guard when you don't want to shoot, and it's wrong to decock most guns with a thumb.

Since there are no mechanical safety issues, this issue must be one of personal choice and reasonable care. The design of the pistol; with a large hammer and inertial firing pin, will always make Cond. 2 an attractive method to someone. Therefore, make your case, but support the person with whom you disagree with the facts and proper techniques.


Everyone should carry a DA pistol with a decocker, anyway.:D
 
cthulhu.....well, one reason I carry it in condition 2 is that I usually have another rifle or pistol along also......If I go berry picking in Wisconsin, where we also deer hunt, I know that there are some pretty big black bears there, and I carry a Ruger SBH 44 mag. with the Garrett heavy cast 310 gr. ammo....you know what, that is also single action and I sure don't worry about getting it into play fast enough just because I have to thumb the hammer back, because I know I can........Maybe my new 454 Casull will fill the bill now, I guess I will sleep easier knowing it is DA.......
 
In all honesty a BlackHawk is a lot easier to bring into play than a 1911. The hammer is a whole lot friendlier. That being said I accidently sent a JHP 44 mag through the foot of my bed about 25 years ago while trying to lower the hammer to half cock on an old model SBH.
Came in from shooting and the phone was ringing, picked up the phone (a girlfriend called) stuck it to my ear sat down on the bed and then decided to unload the hog leg. Cocked the hammer back too far and was in the process of lowering to half cock when "BOOM" muzzle came up and cracked me on the forehead and the girlfriend screamed bloody murder on the phone. I thought I had shot myself and the room was filled with a bucketful of little curly Q's of cotton.
It hit the seam on the inside leg of a pair of jeans laying on the bed and tore a fist sized hole in them but left a neat little whole in the mattress.
Gerald
 
Therefore, make your case, but support the person with whom you disagree with the facts and proper techniques.

Did I not?

It is also the way the vast majority of hammered SA pocket guns are carried (since this isn't just a 1911 thread). So the reality is that it is done and it's going to continue to be done.

Which would those be and who carries them that way?

Outside of a range, I believe all carry is "serious" carry. If it isn't serious, then why do you need the weapon? A pistol in a seat box or backpack is luggage, not an effective immediate weapon. Its condition is of little matter to this thread.

Jem375,
I hunt in Wisconsin (near Eau Claire) and I understand why you would want a pistol to accompany the rifle. A single action revolver, with its large spurred hammer, light spring, and grip designed for single hand cocking, is much easier to quickly and reliably cock under stress than a 1911. It would be pretty foolish to advise that you carry it cocked.
 
"Did I not?" I didn't mean here, I meant when a shooter asks your advise, or you volunteer it.


The other guns I was speaking of: Astra Cub, Beretta 950, Firestar, Colt Mustang, Astra A-90, etc. Anything that is SA, has a hammer and only a tiny safety lever.
 
Yes you can own a gun for something other than for a so-called serious situation. You can also carry condition 2. You can also have an accidental (negligent?) discharge while decocking your loaded SA gun. I have personally witnessed a ND with a 1911 by someone who had preferred keeping his 1911 in condition 2. That was one too many for me to recommend its use.

If you have the leisure to carefully cock a SA in condition 2, why not just leave it in condition 3 to begin with? If you're worried about the off chance that you'll need to deploy quickly, than just use condition 1. Can someone explain to me what good reason exist for carrying in condition 2?
 
Well, what about those of us who carry weapons without manual safeties?

I'm a firm believer that if you should pick a gun that only goes boom when you press the trigger and cover it in a manner that prevents its premature engagement.

Now, with a hammer, from my experience, just have the safety on and thumb back teh hammer is the best for quick reaction. But depending on your method of carry (IWB, SOB, SSH, etc), having the hammer back can cause snagging, especially with rough or curved hammers. If possible, replace the hammer with a rounded one that won't catch on anything.
 
Mute......you personally witnessed a ND in condition 2?????....give us the particulars, please..........am curious to know.......
 
We can own weapons for non-serious use, I just don't believe that carry pertains use other than serious employment, if you are carrying it outside of the practice range.

Firestar, Colt Mustang,

With those smooth hammers? C&L

Astra A-90
Is TDA, so I'd say hammer down DA.

Astra Cub, Beretta 950
Hammers are heavily sprung and fumble prone, safeties are stiff and small, and the slides are narrow and relatively stiff to draw back. Carry them anyway you want, practice it religiously, and hope you don't have ready it quickly under stress.
 
Mute......you personally witnessed a ND in condition 2?????....give us the particulars, please..........am curious to know.......
Click to expand...

I have a friend who had preferred carrying his gun in condition 2 in spite of advice by some of us that there are better options. It was a Series 80 Colt Govt. The ND occured as he was lowering the hammer. Fortunately it was at the shooting range and he had the muzzle pointed somewhat downrange. He said that the hammer sort of just slipped from his fingers.

All this happened back in the late 80's so my recollection might be a tad off. Anyway, the method I always seen him use to lower the hammer was to grip the gun normally and pull the trigger while he held the hammer with his support hand. He'd put his thumb behind the hammer and his index finger between hammer and the pin. I didn't see exactly how it happened as I wasn't standing right next to him, but I watched as he prepared to lower the hammer as he usually does, next thing I know, gun goes off, and he flinches, like someone scared him. I asked what happened and the only thing he could say was, "It just slipped out of my fingers." That's the long and short of what happened.
 
I know of a case in Viet Nam, where a company commander lent his .45 to one of his men to check out a tunnel. The man gave it back, he slipped it into his holster, slung his M16, and KA-POW!

This may have been exacerbated by the hammer being on half-cock, and being hit by the butt of the rifle -- but in any case, he lost the heel of his boot and considered himself lucky.
 
I wanted to add a bit to this thread by quoting from a late model Hi-Power owner's manual but the manual is not where it's supposed to be and I'm ticked at myself. Sooo, from memory it says something to the effect that condition 2 is the "preferred" method of carry" (the pistol has a firing pin block) and says to lower the hammer, roughly, in the following manner: place the thumb of the off-hand between the hammer and the firing pin and gently pull back on the hammer with the firing hand thumb and then slowly pull the trigger allowing the hammer to move forward past the full cock position, removing the finger from the trigger and gently lowering the hammer to half-cock while slipping the thumb free. Then, slowly and slightly pull the hammer back from half-cock and, again releasing the finger from the trigger, slowly allow the hammer down to the rest position. They state it better than I did and I am not recommending this method, only reporting what Browning puts in the manual. A recently purchased FN Hi-Power, on the other hand recommends chamber empty or cocked and locked for brief periods, recommending that law-enforcement should follow each departments policies. FN states that the proper method to lower the cocked hammer manually is to first empty the chamber and lower it on an empty chamber. Apparently the writers of one manual were leery of recommending cocked and locked and the writers of the other were leery of an ND and they were writing about essentially the same pistol. I guess that reinforces the dictum of not pointing the gun at something you're not willing to shoot when handling it loaded. Er, the gun, not you. If you're loaded the pistol is probably not safe in any condition.
 
Someone purports to quote directly from a Browning High Power manual in this thread from the Firing Line. It says:
LOWERING THE HAMMER-
To lower the hammer from full cock to the dropped position the following procedure is recommended.
1. To lower the hammer from full cock to dropped position, the magazine must be inserted in the pistol.
BE SURE THE MUZZLE IS POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION.
2. Firmly place your thumb over the hammer with the point of your thumb in the "V" between the hammer and the firing pin (your thumb will act as a cushion should the hammer accidently fall). Apply slight rearward pressure on the hammer.
3. Depress the trigger and allow the hammer to travel forward very slowly.
4. As soon as the hammer has passed the full cock position REMOVE YOUR FINGER FROM THE TRIGGER.
5. Let the hammer slowly travel forward until it is stopped in the half cock position.
6. Again draw the hammer slightly rearward and depress the trigger until the hammer moves forward, clearing the half cock position.
7. Ease the hammer against the inertia firing pin. The hammer is now in the dropped position - the recommended carrying position.
Click to expand...
It seems like they recommended (at least in this manual) putting the thumb of the hand that's holding the gun at a sort of downward angle while you decock. So, the tip of the thumb would be in between the hammer and the firing pin for most of the decocking procedure.

Edit: I was looking at the quote again, and it could very well be that they mean you should put the thumb of the off hand in front of the hammer. A picture would be worth a thousand words here, as the description doesn't seem to be very clear.

Regardless, it is interesting that they recommend hammer down carry.
 
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The Browning instructions are similar to the way I learned to decock a 1911. While keeping muzzle in safe direction....

1. Take shooting grip w/ finger off trigger.
2. Place support thumb b/t hammer & firing pin resting on hammer face.
3. Place finger on trigger. Pull trigger until you feel hammer release.
4. Let hammer rest against support hand thumb. Move shooting hand thumb to hammer spur.
5. Using BOTH thumbs, lower hammer to half-cock notch.
6. Keeping support hand thumb on hammer, retake shooting grip.
7. Repeat steps 1-5 to lower hammer from half-cock to rest.
8. Holster gun in Condition 2.

Works even better w/ BHP's, Firestars, etc. (no grip safety to depress.)

Again, Condition 2 is a viable carry option--if you train w/ it.
 
There is some evidence that Browning designed it to be carried cond.2, not cocked and locked. Cavalry in those days were quite used to cocking their weapons before firing, also lowering the hammer. It may be that the thumg safety was there only to allow a gallopiing horseman time to come to a stop and uncock the weapon.
 
The pistol Browning originally designed, and the pistol the Army bought are two different things. The Army demanded he add safeties, including the grip safety, which makes uncocking a two-handed proposition -- not too easy to do on the back of an agitated horse.

We've already posted excerpts from FM 25-35:

"l. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not fore- seen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra magazines should be carried fully loaded.

"m. When the pistol is carried In the holster loaded, cocked, and locked the butt should be rotated away from the body when drawing the pistol In order to avoid displacing the safety lock."

The pistol was designed to Army specs, and the Army wanted cocked-and-locked carry, not carry with the hammer down on a loaded round.
 
Again, Condition 2 is a viable carry option--if you train w/ it.

If you train with it, condition 1 is just as safe, less prone to be fumbled when readying the weapon for carry or firing, and faster to the first shot than condition 2 will ever be. This is, of course, keeping to the subject at hand, 1911s and the like, and excluding TDA pistols or SA revolvers.
 
I guess these people that can't let a hammer down on a 1911 without having a AD should not own a single action revolver, because they would have the same problem when it is cocked.....at least with a 1911 you can drop the mag and rack the slide to empty the pistol, with the revolver you either have to fire it or lower the hammer if you are not going to fire it..........Maybe some of these posters should just stick to DA's........
 
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