Cartridge conversions

[MCgunner]

Someone posted about a cartridge conversion I sorta poo fawed for the Old Army. Well, I still don't care too much for the idea. However, I was browsin' at Midway Arms' site and they have cartridge conversion cylinders for imported Urberti and other revolvers. I got to thinkin', you know, you can order the cylinder mail order, you can order the BP revolver mail order. There is no paperwork on either, but you install the cartridge cylinder in the BP revolver and you have a cartridge gun that BATF doesn't know about. Wow, imagine that. If a certain Clinton gets back in the white house, this is something I might wanna keep in mind.

I was wonderin', does anyone have any experience with this conversion? Is it a drop in? How, exactly, does it work? There must be six firing pins in that cylinder? I'm quite sure it's not real quick to reload. LOL I woulda thought the thing would have to be fitted by a Smith to the gun, timing and all, ya know?

 

[azredhawk44]

Look up Kirst Konvertor Cylinders on the internet.

I'd love to get one for my Uberti 1851 "Colt" Navy. I'd have Clint's gun from TGTB&TU and Cort's gun in The Quick and The Dead.

There is only one firing pin in it. There is a complete replacement cylinder which is about 1/2 an inch shorter than the original. Then, there is a firing pin transfer block and a loading gate unit. A lot of times, the cylinder has to be machined to fit properly. Sometimes timing is an issue.

Nope, no paperwork. I kinda doubt criminals are sending in credit card orders on the internet to Cabelas or Midway for '58 Remmies and convertor cylinders, though. That's a total of about $500 for a pretty weak gun that is single action only. A black market handgun can cost 1/3 of that and often is an automatic.

 

[BP Hunter]

no criminal would settle for a single action revovler as their main weapon. they would definitely prefer an assault weapon or a semiautomatic pistol. and another thing, they can get these weapons easily. they wouldn't adverstie themselves on the web in purchasing our bp revovlers.

 

[sjohns]

McGunner, I did this one in a few hours.
I later added an ejector assembly. You'd be surprised how easy it is. If you have any experience with any sort of hobby thing tha requires the use of tools, then with a dremel and drill and tap, lots of things are possible.

This is an Uberti 51 model.

You might want to take note that the way it was manufactured by R&D, that the pistol has to be in half cock with the cylinder out of battery to load or unload.

 

[sjohns]

I agree with BP Hunter. Not that it never happens, but it isn't likely.
These weapons do have to be registered after conversion. (by us that are willing to follow the rules)

Also, dropins are ok. They don't require any modifications to the weapon, so your gun can keep its black powder status. But you have to continually take the cylinder out to load it. I guess dropins with loading gates either haven't been made and tested, or they simply are too hard to work out.

 

[MCgunner]

Wow, that is pretty cool! I could get me a '58 Remmie and four cylinders and have a holster made and I'd be Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider. But, at a couple hundred a pop for the cylinders, I think one conversion would be about all I could afford. LOL!

I'd serious like to do an open top like a '60 Army Colt. It would stand out. Where some not so gun savvy might not notice a Remmie from a SAA, they'd notice the lack of the top strap. I think I'd prefer to do a Navy in '36 to .38 Spcl if they do that. Might have to settle with .38 long colt or .38 S&W, not sure. I'd not wanna get one of my Ruger blackhawk .45 loads mistakenly in a 1860 Colt conversion, though. I think even my light load might be a little much for it. I'd probably shoot pyrodex cartridge loads in it. I've got some +P stuff in .38 Spcl, but it ain't as radical as those hot Ruger .45 loads. Those thing'd turn an open top revolver into scrap iron.

 

[sjohns]

It will take a lot of hot loads before an opentop will start going to pieces.

You have to remember that when we are talking combat and army folks, that they will use a weapon alot more than we will, especially when we are talking 1800s and the war and the indian wars etc. I could see those guys wearing out those opentops and the army wanting a topstrap designed pistol.

In one book I have read, ACW vets were talking that the opentops "could take 60 grains of powder"... well no duh that's gonna stress the heck out of it. Plus they'd cram shot into the cambers and mahe a shotgun pistol at times. What I am saying is that historically, people did a lot with those weapons that you and I would probably never do, fairly guaranteeing longevity of our guns.

Plus there is always the ability to use 38 short colts in those conversions, and the idea of keeping the mv down under 900 is a good rule.

As you can see, I am partial to opentops. But I also have a remmie and a remmie carbine.

There are some around that chamber 38 special. I think mine does but I haven't tried any yet, A plus P would have too much muzzle velocity. A lot has to do with cylinder length. If the round is too long... the cylinder won't turn.

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, the ol' '60 armys were stronger than people give 'em credit, but the load I wouldn't want to find its way into one is not recommended for S&W N frames, much less an open top Colt. It's loaded with 20 grains of H2400 pushing a 300 grain JHP to 1200 fps out of a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. It's got WAY too much pressure for an open top and knowing me and Murphy's law, well, I'd rather have a .36 navy in .38 something for a conversion. Besides, for classic looks, it's hard to top the '51 Navy.

 

[sjohns]

I purchased my kits off gunbroker. I got a pair at 175 each. But I don't see them there very often. But if you keep watch there and other places, you might find one for a price you're willing to pay.

But there is always Taylor's, R&D, RiverJunction,and Midway.

The conversion cylinders for the 44 colt all seem to be 5 shot. That doesn't turn me on much. I would prefer some authenticity. I don't like being dictated to that I MUST have this dummy cylider or safety cylinder or what have you. I am contemplating building my own out a cimarron parts. They have 6 shot cylinders.

 

[Old Dragoon]

My sentiment exactly 6 shot and I choose.....

That is why I went with the 44 Rem. Kirst Konvertor for my 44 '58 Remmy.
it is a true 6 shot cylinder and I, Me, Myself, a Committee of One, can choose which to leave empty or not. Not 5 and a stop. I'll choose, thank you kindly.

Also the 44 Rem is more authentic for a '58 Remmy as the very first conversions ; for the Military 46 Rimfire. and Civilian and later Army 44 CF.

44 Rem cartridge is Remington's 44 CF for the Original Remington Conversions and original Colt Conversion(and any other original 44 C & B converted to 44 CF.

 

[sjohns]

Old Dragoon!

I was in touch with Jim from River Junction. I had emailed him some months ago because that kirst loop he had contained an in the white kit for 60 colt, and then it disappeared.

He said I should email him in a couple of months. well, he forwarded the message to Walt Kirst and walt said that the weren't any plans for a large production run, but that they would begin making a few in April.

Their prices being what they are... I'm sure it will be in the 300.00 range. I just hope I have the beans when it comes out. (this will be another one that garners harsh looks from the wife)

That 1860 with the loose base pin would make a good project gun, I think, or I'm just retarded or something, maybe nuts.

But I already have a Cimarron 44 breech, and I've been thinking about grinding/filing/otherwise shaving that frame down to fit it. I need to wait until I have one of their cylinders so that I can get the distances down.

The breech is held on by the base pin. So it looks like the frame needs to be narrowed even deeper than just the cylinder seating ring. I'll find out later if I decide to proceed.

 

[sjohns]

here's an Uberti Remington 45 Long Colt for sale at Espray:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7229484000&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEBI:IT&rd=1

No, its not mine, I would tell ya if it was.

 

[Weird Guy]

I have a Ruger R & D conversion cylinder that I got from Taylorsfirearms.com. They sell the R & D cylinders now.

Yes, the rear plate has firing pins in it. The R & D cylinders have a rear plate that is keyed with a single peg to the cylinder. The Kirst Konverter types have a stationary rear part (bottom has a flat side that sits on the frame), only one firing pin, and a large hole in the center. An overly long star on the cylinder itself goes through the large hole and the cylinder advancing paw does it's work that way.

Reloading means taking the cylinder out of the gun, and with the R & D you pull off the rear plate (Kirst ones leaves that on the pistol). You manually reload the chambers and put the cylinder back into the pistol. Obviously with Colt pistols this is a bit more of an undertaking, requiring you to use a hammer and punch to knock out the wedge and pull off the barrel to get the cylinder off the front.

By far the easiest pistol to convert is the 1858 Remington. The thing is designed to quick change cylinders, so getting a conversion cylinder out is no problem. The Ruger is next, but the Ruger has a funky loading lever that is part of the cylinder pin. They are not held together by anything other than groves and slots that interlink when on the pistol, along with a 3/4 turn screw pin on the side of the revolver to lock them in place (you can turn that with your thumbnail...it never gets tight).

Remingtons get 5 shot cylinders because the rims of the .45 Long Colt bullets overlap otherwise. Rugers get 6 shots because they are just flat out larger pistols in diameter and not a problem. The Remingtons that do get 6 shots have the bullet slightly tilted at the rear end to make room, and that isn't good for your barrel I would think.

The Remington also has a loading gated version from Kirst, but you have to use a dremel tool and sanding drum bits to grind a loading pathway into the righthand rear pistol frame (you should also re-blue the metal with some chemicals sold in hardware stores unless yours is a stainless pistol).

No laws are broken by using conversion cylinders. You are considered the manufacturer of the pistol, and you just bought parts that you do the final assembly to. You only need to register it to sell it that way, but anybody who does that is an idiot. You just disassemble the pistol and then sell it that way, as a blackpowder and extra parts.

 

[sjohns]

I like doing the conversions, but I don't wanna get fricassed by the nazis, so I'm getting an 01 ffl.

The monkeys that live out here charge 50 - 75.00 for transfers and such. I am tired of paying 50 bucks extra for my guns. They are too hungry and desparate.

So if I make a conversion and sell it, I can do my own paperwork as part of the deal.

 

[Old Dragoon]

Don't you have to pay a treasury tax to manufacture along with the FFL? Or for everyone you manufacture. I think your liability insurance will eat you up.

 

[sjohns]

I don't know.

I'm thinking that since it is a modification, it isn't manufacturing, it reconfiguring. And if it isn't addressed specifically in whatever regs I should receive, then I think I would just register it as one would normally register any other.

 

[ewb45acp]

SJohns...

You mentioed you added an ejector to that 51. Where did you get it? I've been toying with the idea of the gated conversion from R&D, but I would like to have the ejector. I haven't seen them advertised.

 

[Yankee John]

Not to hijack this post, but I just decided to sell my Pietta Remington & Kirst Konverter with ejector, in .45LC. Extra .45 ACP cylinder included.

Details are here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2353525#post2353525

John

 

[sjohns]

you added an ejector to that 51

I got the parts from VTI Gunparts.

I bought the housing, spring and screw from them. They were out of stock on the rods and tips. I got one of those at Auction Arms.

VTI should have the rods in by now. Look up their website and call them about it.

They really screw the pooch with emails and web orders sometimes.

The email miscues were so bad that I had to call and expected those BukaBuks from India or Pakistan to be there answering. I ws surprised to find americans there. That's how bad the email thing was with them.

R&D makes them also but are very expensive.

search sites like Auction Arms, Gunbroker and ebay for: ejector rod assembly