Ugly Sauce
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That's what I'm talking about. Brass might have Bling, but that metal is really pretty.
BP 45 Schofield Loads in 1851 w/conversion
- Thread starter webrx
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Thanks to a fellow member of THR who generously donated some Schofield brass for this experiment (not naming names since he did so privately). There are so many great people on this forum - Thanks again - much appreciated!
I have a request in the reloading trading post to buy or trade some CS brass. Hopefully find some soon, in the mean time, also waiting on my Big Lube Bullets.
I will start loading up some round ball this weekend in 45 Colt and Schofield, expecting bullets today or tomorrow, so maybe get started on those also.
d
I have a request in the reloading trading post to buy or trade some CS brass. Hopefully find some soon, in the mean time, also waiting on my Big Lube Bullets.
I will start loading up some round ball this weekend in 45 Colt and Schofield, expecting bullets today or tomorrow, so maybe get started on those also.
d
whughett
Member
I believe part of the difference perceived or otherwise in muzzle loaded rounds of any combination of powder and projectile against the exact same round in a cartridge case has to do with the blow back thru the nipples well as the crimp on the projectile.
You can trim 45C cases to any length to suit your needs. Conversion cylinders in some instances don’t allow some bullets to be seated correctly and function in the revolver. It’s for that reason I purchases a few hundred 45Special from Starline. Actually a 45ACP with a rim. You could load such cases with as little powder as you wished and keep the fillers to a minimum or none.
The down side would be if you subscribed to the theory that more bullet jump into the forcing cone is an issue with accuracy.
You can trim 45C cases to any length to suit your needs. Conversion cylinders in some instances don’t allow some bullets to be seated correctly and function in the revolver. It’s for that reason I purchases a few hundred 45Special from Starline. Actually a 45ACP with a rim. You could load such cases with as little powder as you wished and keep the fillers to a minimum or none.
The down side would be if you subscribed to the theory that more bullet jump into the forcing cone is an issue with accuracy.
ThomasT
Member
The biggest problem I can see with shortening 45 Colt brass would be when you seat the bullet in the new shortened case you may get sidewall bulge at the base of the bullet. RCBS make a case reaming die so that cases can be reamed deeper to prevent the bulge. Cases are tapered on the inside and get thicker the closer to the rim that you get. 38 Wadcutter brass is reamed deeper so that when the long bullets are seated deeper in the case the cases don't bulge. I have had 38 WC loads do that with some cases but it was a long time before I found out why it happened.
And if you shorten the cases the 45 Colt die may not roll crimp the brass and you will have to have a die made for the 45 Schofield brass or a 45 Colt die that has been shortened. In the end just getting the proper brass and dies may be a lot easier.
And if you shorten the cases the 45 Colt die may not roll crimp the brass and you will have to have a die made for the 45 Schofield brass or a 45 Colt die that has been shortened. In the end just getting the proper brass and dies may be a lot easier.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
The reason you do not want to cut down 45 Colt brass to 45 Schofield brass is that the wall of the case gets slightly thicker further away from the case mouth. It probably will not make much difference with cutting 45 Colt down to 45 Schofield length, but it might make crimping just a tad fussier.
I buy all my brass from Starline. I checked a few days ago and 45 Schofield was back ordered, but it looks like it is back in stock now.
Not much gas vents out the nipples, that would not make a significant difference in recoil between a Cap & Ball load and a cartridge.
However, the weight of the projectile will make a big difference, as will the crimp. There is not much mechanical retention holding a round ball in the chamber of a C&B revolver, just the surface friction of the very small cross section where the lead was shaved away seating the ball. By contrast, the crimp in a cartridge mechanically locks the bullet in place. Everything else being equal, pressure will build higher with a cartridge to push the bullet out of the case than with a round ball seated in the chamber of a C&B revolver. The higher pressure will result in higher felt recoil.
I do not know what brand of conversion cylinder you are using, but the current cylinders that Taylors sells for 45 Colt conversions in 1858 Remington Cap & Ball revolvers are cut large enough to accommodate the larger diameter rim of 45 Schofield brass.
Personally, I don't think it is a great idea to be firing cartridges from a brass framed revolver, the increased recoil will pound the cylinder back into the frame more than a mild C&B load. You may experience some stretching of the frame, or the ratchet teeth of the cylinder may dig impressions into the recoil shield.
For what it's worth, my 45 Schofield cartridges are loaded with 1.9CC of Schuetzen FFg (about 28.5 grains) under a 200 grain J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet.
In this photo, the cartridge 2nd to the left is one of my 45 Schofield Black Powder loads.
The reason you do not want to cut down 45 Colt brass to 45 Schofield brass is that the wall of the case gets slightly thicker further away from the case mouth. It probably will not make much difference with cutting 45 Colt down to 45 Schofield length, but it might make crimping just a tad fussier.
I buy all my brass from Starline. I checked a few days ago and 45 Schofield was back ordered, but it looks like it is back in stock now.
Not much gas vents out the nipples, that would not make a significant difference in recoil between a Cap & Ball load and a cartridge.
However, the weight of the projectile will make a big difference, as will the crimp. There is not much mechanical retention holding a round ball in the chamber of a C&B revolver, just the surface friction of the very small cross section where the lead was shaved away seating the ball. By contrast, the crimp in a cartridge mechanically locks the bullet in place. Everything else being equal, pressure will build higher with a cartridge to push the bullet out of the case than with a round ball seated in the chamber of a C&B revolver. The higher pressure will result in higher felt recoil.
I do not know what brand of conversion cylinder you are using, but the current cylinders that Taylors sells for 45 Colt conversions in 1858 Remington Cap & Ball revolvers are cut large enough to accommodate the larger diameter rim of 45 Schofield brass.
Personally, I don't think it is a great idea to be firing cartridges from a brass framed revolver, the increased recoil will pound the cylinder back into the frame more than a mild C&B load. You may experience some stretching of the frame, or the ratchet teeth of the cylinder may dig impressions into the recoil shield.
For what it's worth, my 45 Schofield cartridges are loaded with 1.9CC of Schuetzen FFg (about 28.5 grains) under a 200 grain J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet.
In this photo, the cartridge 2nd to the left is one of my 45 Schofield Black Powder loads.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Regarding Colt and Iron and Gun Metal.
Colt never made a cartridge revolver with a frame and cylinder that was not made of ferrous metal. Early Colt Single Action Army revolvers, as well as their Cap & Ball predecessors had frames and cylinders made of Malleable Iron. As time went on, frames and cylinders were made from steel. The steel got better and better as time went on so that Colt eventually warrantied the SAA for Smokeless Powder in 1900.
The 1860 Henry rifle was made by the New Haven Arms Company, not Winchester. Although Oliver Winchester was the main investor in the New Haven Arms Company, he did not change the name of the company to Winchester Repeating Arms until 1866, partially because of a legal dispute with Benjamin Tyler Henry, the designer of the rifle and an employee of the former company.
The first few hundred Henry rifles had iron frames, because the manufacturing equipment had not all arrived in New Haven for a while. The first few hundred frames were farmed out, and were made of iron.
Gunmetal is a type of bronze. Both bronze and brass are alloys of copper. The main difference is that bronze is copper alloyed with tin, brass is copper alloyed with zinc. Both the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Winchester had frames made of a type of bronze commonly called Gunmetal. Modern analysis of the metal in these frames shows they were 80 - 88% copper, 10-15% Tin, and 2 -5% Zinc, with a little lead added to help fill the molds for casting.
Colt never made a cartridge revolver with a frame and cylinder that was not made of ferrous metal. Early Colt Single Action Army revolvers, as well as their Cap & Ball predecessors had frames and cylinders made of Malleable Iron. As time went on, frames and cylinders were made from steel. The steel got better and better as time went on so that Colt eventually warrantied the SAA for Smokeless Powder in 1900.
The 1860 Henry rifle was made by the New Haven Arms Company, not Winchester. Although Oliver Winchester was the main investor in the New Haven Arms Company, he did not change the name of the company to Winchester Repeating Arms until 1866, partially because of a legal dispute with Benjamin Tyler Henry, the designer of the rifle and an employee of the former company.
The first few hundred Henry rifles had iron frames, because the manufacturing equipment had not all arrived in New Haven for a while. The first few hundred frames were farmed out, and were made of iron.
Gunmetal is a type of bronze. Both bronze and brass are alloys of copper. The main difference is that bronze is copper alloyed with tin, brass is copper alloyed with zinc. Both the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Winchester had frames made of a type of bronze commonly called Gunmetal. Modern analysis of the metal in these frames shows they were 80 - 88% copper, 10-15% Tin, and 2 -5% Zinc, with a little lead added to help fill the molds for casting.
Thanks everyone, I appreciate the knowledge and experience sharing.
I am still waiting on the 200gr big lube bullets to arrive, I do have some smokeless bullets, so thought I might load up some 200 or 250 grain bullets with trail boss for fun.
Per Hodgdon 2008 muzzle loading manual:
25 grains of 777 3F should give you 763 fps in an 1858 .44 and a .454 round ball.
35 grains of 2F under a 200 gr should give you around 959 fps
30 grains under a 250 gr bullet should give around 838
I could not find it written, maybe I missed it, but I assume these are max loads and can be reduced since I don't need anything around 1000 fps for a conversion cylinder, and if I recall, 3fg, will be a bit hotter than 2fg so I am thinking 20 as a starting load will be good.
Per Alliant been, as discussed before, they say one load and one load only,
Below is the only load data we have for the use of Black MZ in the 45 Colt cartridge. The charges are by weight and are the charges, not to be reduced or increased.
Black MZ Powder.
Cartridge Bullet Bullet Wt. Primer Case Powder charge Velocity
45 Colt RNFP Lead 250 gr Fed 150 Fed 26.5 878
45 Colt RNFP Lead 300 gr Fed 150 Fed 26 824
If all I had was 3fg triple 7 and Black MZ, loading the same as real BP (Thanks Driftwood for the write up you had in another thread and for the above. AKA - load it so that I get 1/16" to 1/8th compression) which powder should I (or would you) use for your Cartridges under a 200 grain big lube bullet?
Ordered some Real BP today, so, as soon as it and the Big Lubes get here, I'll be ready to test.
d
I am still waiting on the 200gr big lube bullets to arrive, I do have some smokeless bullets, so thought I might load up some 200 or 250 grain bullets with trail boss for fun.
Per Hodgdon 2008 muzzle loading manual:
25 grains of 777 3F should give you 763 fps in an 1858 .44 and a .454 round ball.
35 grains of 2F under a 200 gr should give you around 959 fps
30 grains under a 250 gr bullet should give around 838
I could not find it written, maybe I missed it, but I assume these are max loads and can be reduced since I don't need anything around 1000 fps for a conversion cylinder, and if I recall, 3fg, will be a bit hotter than 2fg so I am thinking 20 as a starting load will be good.
Per Alliant been, as discussed before, they say one load and one load only,
Below is the only load data we have for the use of Black MZ in the 45 Colt cartridge. The charges are by weight and are the charges, not to be reduced or increased.
Black MZ Powder.
Cartridge Bullet Bullet Wt. Primer Case Powder charge Velocity
45 Colt RNFP Lead 250 gr Fed 150 Fed 26.5 878
45 Colt RNFP Lead 300 gr Fed 150 Fed 26 824
If all I had was 3fg triple 7 and Black MZ, loading the same as real BP (Thanks Driftwood for the write up you had in another thread and for the above. AKA - load it so that I get 1/16" to 1/8th compression) which powder should I (or would you) use for your Cartridges under a 200 grain big lube bullet?
Ordered some Real BP today, so, as soon as it and the Big Lubes get here, I'll be ready to test.
d
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I thought I would upload some test fodder.
I get it, no brass frame revolvers will be tested with conversion cylinders.
That doesn't mean I couldn't pull those shorter barrels off the brassers and put them on the steel frame for the 1851s
.
I get it, no brass frame revolvers will be tested with conversion cylinders.
That doesn't mean I couldn't pull those shorter barrels off the brassers and put them on the steel frame for the 1851s
.
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