case hardening

[bob4]

1. My issue: Rem 700 270. Cases stick in chamber. These are Winchester cases and RP both. All I ever do is neck size them.
They are not loaded just empty cases. By stick I mean if I chamber them without throwing the bolt down they will not slide out with out help. If this makes any sense: I can almost feel that I have to push the bolt forward a last tiny bit with a fair amount of pressure to close all the way.
These cases have been shot 6-7 times. Even after full sizing they still stuck. So I took my propane torch and warmed 2 up a bit to soften them. ( I have these marked and don't intend to use them as this wasn't any controlled form of annealing ) after another Full resize and they slide in and out fine.

My question is is this when and why people anneal cases?
Or maybe I have something else going on I'm unaware of?

Something else I noticed last cleaning was they didn't come out as shinny as normal. I wash with stainless media ,lemi shine and dish soap. Always came out like brand new. I was wondering if this has to do with the overall condition of the brass or not?
Pic attached is 2 identical to the 2 empty except the 2 empty have been Annealed.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

I'm not certain but could your chamber just be a little dirty causing cases to stick? Also what is you COAL those rounds look awfully long and you may be pushing those bullets into the rifling.

 

[Blue68f100]

It's normal to have to anneal the shoulder area after 4-5 shootings. What was happening was that you were not able to push the shoulder back during the FL sizing. Normally you need 0.002-0.003" setback, you were getting spring back. Anneal the rest and you should be good to go.

 

[243winxb]

Neck sized brass will not chamber soon or later. May be from work hardening & less spring back after firing. Annealing is to keep brass from becoming brittle & cracking, the neck area, more than the body or shoulder. I would guess, annealed brass may let the shoulder be pushed back easier when its chambered. As for the change in brass color, ethanol in the dish soap may effect brass??? But there would be very low % in the mix, so not likely??

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Even after full sizing they still stuck.

The web area near the head is not sized by FL dies. High pressure may expand the web. Watch for loose primer pockets. Or/and the fire formed web area may be oval from an out of round chamber.

 

[Walkalong]

If you neck size only at some point the cases will start getting tight in the chamber. At this point you can FL size them, use a body die, or anneal them and FL size them. Some of this is predicated on where the case is tight in the chamber. Body, or shoulder, or both?

When FL sizing only, cases will start to resist sizing as they harden up from multiple firings. This means if you do not adjust your sizer down a couple thousandths or so when needed, the cases will start getting tight in the chamber, despite FL sizing.

Sizers set up properly with new soft brass will have to be re-adjusted when the cases harden up and resist sizing, or the cases will need to be annealed.

I would guess, annealed brass may let the shoulder be pushed back easier when its chambered

Absolutely.

 

[bob4]

Thanks everyone. Just had to be sure. I hate to hurt myself or my rifle over a $30 bag of brass. I guess I'll anneal 12 or so and load and see how it goes. I probably have 200 or so and hate to toss them if they're not ready. Although I did order 50 more to be on the safe side for hunting soon.

I'm not certain but could your chamber just be a little dirty causing cases to stick? Also what is you COAL those rounds look awfully long and you may be pushing those bullets into the rifling.

Gun is kept pretty clean. I use a chamber brush after each firing and clean receiver and barrel too.
I measure from the Ogive and these are .030 off the lands. None I get out are marked from the lands and they do pull out with the extractor and no powder dumpage thank goodness. They fit in the mag so all should be good there. As I said this happened without a bullet in, did that to eliminate that possibility. I actually had them another .10 longer and shorter but my pattern opened up so I'm staying with .030. Just shot 1.25 and 1.5 at 200yds. Was a lucky day.
I'll try and remember to let you know how it all works out.
Thanks again everyone.

 

[243winxb]

I see a line in the body of the loaded rounds. Do you know how they got there?

 

[bob4]

I've noticed them also. I don't have any idea. But in looking now seems all the Winchester brass has it and none (looked at a dozen or so ) of the RP brass has it. I have both cleaned and resized,waiting to be primed and waiting to be cleaned and resized. It's more noticable on some than others.
Any ideas? Maybe it came this way? When I bought this brass I was brand new to this and it was new brass straight from big box store. So it's possible I didn't notice it or thought nothing of it.

 

[243winxb]

Line on body of the brass.

It may be a sigh of pending case separation? Not common if your only neck sizing. When brass has to much head clearance in the chamber from FL sizing or undersized factory new brass, the stretching may cause this problem on firing. Your line looks more like a rub mark from something. Hard to tell by the photo.

 

[bob4]

It may be a sigh of pending case separation? Not common if your only neck sizing. When brass has to much head clearance in the chamber from FL sizing or undersized factory new brass, the stretching may cause this problem on firing. Your line looks more like a rub mark from something. Hard to tell by the photo.

Is that a picture you took or from an article somewhere? If I just had the line I might not consider it. But that I'm having an issue I may want to look closer.

Running a paper clip inside these cases all seems fine.

 

[243winxb]

The photo is mine. Brass fired in M16A1 with about .014" head clearance. Some brass broke in half on firing. Not as dangerous as a head separation. Why, long story...........

 

[bob4]

Paper clip test accurate enough in looking for case separation ?

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

I thought case seperation happened right at the case neck and shoulder also down near the case head. That line looks like its right in the middle of the casing. I'm gonna say its just some sort of rub mark. Although I have .270 ww brass and I haven't seen marks like that.

 

[Walkalong]

It usually happens lower, but can happen up high like that.

 

[bob4]

It usually happens lower, but can happen up high like that.

Can anything be felt up high by scraping the inside by the line. Or is it still felt lower by the head ? I can't feel anything in there at all.

 

[243winxb]

Ring on brass from Seating Die- Hornady or Redding?

Paper clip test accurate enough in looking for case separation ?

Would seem to be more useful in the head/web area, as the brass is thicker there. The body is thinner. I have not tried it. Does you seating die have a floating bullet alignment sleeve and/or stem , like Hornady? Or maybe Redding? The mark may be from it.

 

[Gatofeo]

Anytime a reloader says that a little extra effort is required to seat a cartridge, I immediately suspect a lack of case trimming.
Are you trimming your cases regularly? You don't even mention case trimming.

Years ago, a co-worker complained that his .308 Winchester cartridges were difficult to chamber in his bolt action. Previously, they'd chambered fine.
I couldn't immediately think of a solution, but it occurred to me later.
"Are you checking your case length each time you reload?"
"You have to do that?" was his response.
"Yessss ... and you have to trim cases that are overly long."
The result: He bought a Lee Case Trimmer. Problem solved. Cartridges chambered easily again.

Soooooooo ... case length? How's that looking?

 

[bob4]

Does you seating die have a floating bullet alignment sleeve and/or stem , like Hornady? Or maybe Redding? The mark may be from it.

I'm not sure about the floating bullet alignment sleeve. I used a Lyman for a while and recently I'm using RCBS.

As for trimming I do trim cases and chamfer both rdges and they're from 2.525 - 2.530 with closer to 2.530 the norm.
That 2 slid in and out fine yesterday after annealing I think we're onto something there. My entire routine has worked pretty well the past couple yrs. Now that the cases have multiple firings and aren't fitting as well and that there is no mark on the bullet itself after extraction it's really making me think shoulders.

But keep your thoughts coming. I hope to have time today after work to properly (or so I hope) anneal a dozen or so. It didn't seem to take much heat to do that yesterday enough to where the shoulders seemed to move again.

 

[243winxb]

Basic Full Length Resizing

Screw the FL die down so that the press cams over (RCBS). When sizing a case, with the ram at the top of the stroke, the shell holder must be fully contacting the FL die. Some times we overlook the basic method to full length resizing.

 

[Lee S. Forsberg]

Neck sizing can only be done so many times before cases become sticky and hard to chamber then full length sizing or sizing the body becomes necessary so does trimming and annealing. I like to feel the case chamber when closing the bolt so if I have to full length size I sneak up on it so as not to push the shoulder of the case back any further than necessary. Chambering a case with .002"-.003" headspace feels sloppy and if cases are sized with .002"-.003" headspace each time cases will separate after 4-8 firings depending on the thickness of the brass. Trimming and annealing maybe all that's necessary and sizing with a body die only so as not to push the shoulder back.

 

[918v]

His case is sticking because the case head has expanded to the point where there is insufficient spring back to allow it to fall out if the chamber. It needs to be FL sized and annealed.

The shiny ring could be a sign of impending separation. I have seen pics of cases that let go up higher, but normally that ring appears .5" from the bottom of the case. I'd cut one open to confirm.

 

[bob4]

Moving right along at a snails pace: Used a socket and cordless drill to to anneal. Seems to work pretty well.
As soon as they were the color
I wanted in the water they went
so as not to
change the head temper.

And the outcome: I did 22, once set up took only minutes .
You can see where the heat stopped
1/4 inch below the shoulders. So I think I'm in good shape.
The 3 on the left are the same as the others.
The picture makes them look darker for some reason. Going to resize and check in chamber tomorrow.

 

[Walkalong]

if cases are sized with .002"-.003" headspace each time cases will separate after 4-8 firings depending on the thickness of the brass

I have not seen this. Are you sure it is only .002 to .003? I routinely shoot cases 8+ times with no internal signs of case head separation when moving shoulders .002 to .003.

 

[243winxb]

Case Separations- Head Clearance.

if cases are sized with .002"-.003" headspace each time cases will separate after 4-8 firings depending on the thickness of the brass.

I have not seen this. +1 Over .010" with a few firings, then maybe. More like .014" in my experence.

 

[quartermaster]

It looks to me that the 2 cases on the left on your picture are bluish in color all the way down the body. Confirm for yourself that it is just the way they look in the picture. The discoloration shouldn't run very far down on the case body.

I annealed with a socket and a drill for a short while, but didn't feel that my uniformity was up to par


Be safe